Thinking faster?

[hdiddy]

So we all have talked about how to play in uptempo tunes. There's plenty of stuff that has been addressed about the physicality of playing uptempo: relaxation, licks, different RH technique (ala NHOP), etc. etc. Whenever this discussion arises, someone always chimes in that one can only play as fast as one hears the solo in their head, mainly to remain "honest" and avoid noodling.

At my level, I try to phrase over sets of measures as the beats go by to prevent overplaying and hearing phrases rather than just BS'ing my way through it.

But is it possible for me to develop my "inner" ear to come up with fast ideas? I see this being the root cause needing a root solution. How do you develop your mind to do this? Is it possible? The only thing I see remotely close to a solution is to do transcriptions and scatting solo's, but it hasn't really done anything to improve the speed at which I come up with ideas. I guess it's more of an esoteric question, but I really wonder if it's possible to improve your mind, maybe away from the instrument even.

[Ed Fuqua]

I really think it's mostly ear training and expanding your harmonic vocabulary. Which comes VERY slowly. Not just hearing intervals and triads, but hearing and singing 4 part chords with two tensions starts putting you into polychordal territory. And when you start hearing melodic choices through a multiplicity of harmonic material, you get a LOT of notes to choose from. Not randomly, but because you hear the possibilities of every single one of them and can hear all the arcs of all the solo possibilities. And that's profound.

Like gumbo.

[Stellar Blues]

Saxaphonists must go through practise routines that build up that speed; I imagine that they think in terms of memorized riffs that they can spin off at speed.

[Ed Fuqua]

That's a pretty poor standard to emulate.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Stellar Blues

Saxaphonists must go through practise routines that build up that speed; I imagine that they think in terms of memorized riffs that they can spin off at speed.

That's not really what I'm talking about. That's lick playing which is often done, and the ideas aren't neccessarily "in the moment" as they are conjured up ahead of time and practiced until they are easily employable. I'm talking about coming up with original ideas on the spot, which is what improvisation is supposedly about.

Thanks for the response Ed. I know it's a long slog but it's good to hear to you that it comes "VERY SLOWLY". Now I know why everybody pushes that a little piano must be learnt. I know piano myself, but have yet to be able to hear those voicings easily but I can see what you're saying already. Yes that's very deep and kinda intimidating.

[MrSidecar]

Hi.

I´d say, first off is that you don´t have to expect of yourself to be able to play fast if the tune is fast. I mean, take uptempo recordings with virtuoso bassists. If it´s REALLY fast (Mehldau on "the way you look tonight" or similar), then there´s enough people you would consider virtuoso (like, in this case, Grenadier), and if you analyze their playing, you´ll see the fastest he plays is quarter notes. It´s more in the placement than in the subdivision played.

Second, if you want to play fast tunes and solo fast, try in your practice to sacrifice somerthing else than speed. For example, practice "Giant Steps" (metronome or playalong of course, and fast), but only play roots or only thirds, or only 7ths of the chords. In time. So you limit the note pool, not the speed. Then take two notes, and gradually work your way up.

It of course helps to know the instrument really well. All major and minor scales, triads, 7th chords... And that´s something that you can spend a lot of time on also.

ANyway, that´s my 2 cents.

[just_me]

cool, very interesting question.

how much piano do you guys think is necessary in order to here that harmony? isn't something you can develop by singing, with the basse as a "reference of pitch"?

one of my techers said it's not so much about technique, more about a "reservoir" or "pool" of notes you have to have. to do that, he recommends improvising with say, only 8ths notes at a slow tempo on the whole form, then increasing the tempo and/or changing the subdivisions...

Ed, you don't seem to like saxophone players, why is that?
just curious

thanks,

yannick

[oliebrice]

Ed was refering to playing memorized riffs as a poor standard to aspire to, not playing saxophones... (i assume!)

[Zachmozach]

8th notes are hard to play fast on the bass, but luckily music is easy to hear if you listen closely.

Application is tough sometimes though.

[Sam Sherry]

Huy -- Few things along the notion is of "listening faster" as well as "thinking faster."

a) Building from where Mr. Few was starting, yeah, listening to horn players in general and saxophonists in particular is key. You don't necessarily need to be analytical either; just letter it wash over you while you wash the dishes is cool (and you need to wash your dishes anyway).

b) Obviously, running with what the folks on the bandstand throw you ensures that you don't get stuck too deep in "your thing" and it maximizes actual music-making. Do they have some rhythmic cues you can run with? Are they hanging you out to dry?

c) Last but not least don't be afraid to listen to yourself. What did you just end that phrase with? What would happen if you started the next phrase with the same thing? A variation? An inversion? The same rhythm?

I hope that this isn't just idiotic rambling. Please forgive me if so; you know I dig your playing a lot.

[buddyro57]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

but because you hear the possibilities of every single one of them and can hear all the arcs of all the solo possibilities. And that's profound.

let's really think about that a bit; given the fact that with any group of 4 discreet pitches (for the sake of discussion, let's take a dominant 7th arpeggio), there are 24 reorderings, Now take the so-called be-bop scale (8 notes) 56 reorderings, add transposition, any number of rhythmic variations....well you see where we are headed- let's stipulate that no one is going to be able to hear ALL of the possibilities. The science of how the brain works during the process of spontaneous composition (improvisation) is vast, with an infinite number of variables- that's why there are voices as distinct as Webster and Shorter, Konitz and Stitt. These guys all attack(ed) the problem in different ways, with different brains, different ears, and different musical foundations (completely different archives of learned materials etc).
As for the comment about memorizing licks; don't be too quick to dismiss that notion- all soloists play clichés that they have worked out- BUT, they integrate the "learned" material with that which is more immediately conceived.
Look at what all of the great soloists had or have, a resevoir of melodic ideas, at the ready, gathered from a lifetime of listening, thinking, and practicing.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Huy -- Few things along the notion is of "listening faster" as well as "thinking faster."

a) Building from where Mr. Few was starting, yeah, listening to horn players in general and saxophonists in particular is key. You don't necessarily need to be analytical either; just letter it wash over you while you wash the dishes is cool (and you need to wash your dishes anyway).

b) Obviously, running with what the folks on the bandstand throw you ensures that you don't get stuck too deep in "your thing" and it maximizes actual music-making. Do they have some rhythmic cues you can run with? Are they hanging you out to dry?

c) Last but not least don't be afraid to listen to yourself. What did you just end that phrase with? What would happen if you started the next phrase with the same thing? A variation? An inversion? The same rhythm?

I hope that this isn't just idiotic rambling. Please forgive me if so; you know I dig your playing a lot.

No worries Sam. Everybody's necroposting now. :P

I've sorta moved on since then and haven't focused much on playing fast. I went back and listened to alot of great players and what they did on fast tempos - that there are plenty of greats that focused on melody and less on speed to my ears. So now I just try to play the melodies I come up with, regardless of the speed. When I try to get too trick with it, my teacher is quick to snap me back to playing chord tones and outlining the form. For me, staying close to the chord forms require less thinking and and is relatively safer. It seems like there's this balancing act between melody, speed, and staying close to the form. If it's too fast for me, I dont' hesitate to walk the solo. I'm impressed with Steve Swallow's walking solos so I see no "shame" in that.

I've also been taking this one particular class at the Jazzschool in Berkeley with Wayne Wallace - who will soon put out a book on the subject. In a nutshell, it involves playing figures, scales, chords in all sorts of patterns while keeping a mental intention behind it. Getting your mind, your ears, and your hands into playing key combinations that you haven't before - also in all kinds of tempos/rhythm including triplets. It's like Hanon on steroids and works wonders for me to the point that it's my new warmup routine. I've only been doing this stuff for two months but I'm sure it will yield alot over the long run. I'll post about it when he gets the book published.

[TroyK]

Something that I've been doing this year, both fast and slow that may or may not have some relevance to you.

I've been transcribing myself. I listen to a lot of records and radio and sing solos over the recordings. Or when I'm waiting for the bus (if I have the bus stop to myself) or am walking my dog, I think of a tune and improvize solos. I find that I've got the ideas that I want to hear in my playing, there is a disconnect between the music that is inside me and what usually comes out through my bass.

So, I sing a solo and then try to play it. Or I record myself singing a chorus of improvization and then transcribe what I sang onto the bass. It's helping me get in touch with my own musical ideas as a player.

Of course, I still transcribe other people and do different things to improve as well, but this is my own technique for the year. Try it, it may have some value to you.

[bassnutj]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I really think it's mostly ear training and expanding your harmonic vocabulary. Which comes VERY slowly. Not just hearing intervals and triads, but hearing and singing 4 part chords with two tensions starts putting you into polychordal territory. And when you start hearing melodic choices through a multiplicity of harmonic material, you get a LOT of notes to choose from. Not randomly, but because you hear the possibilities of every single one of them and can hear all the arcs of all the solo possibilities. And that's profound.

Like gumbo.

If this is a very slow process, how did someone like Marc Johnson develop his vocabulary enough to get the Bill Evans gig when he was 21? Remember, he had only been playing jazz for maybe 2-3 years at that point....

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by bassnutj

If this is a very slow process, how did someone like Marc Johnson develop his vocabulary enough to get the Bill Evans gig when he was 21? Remember, he had only been playing jazz for maybe 2-3 years at that point....

I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing that he spent a TON of time, playing, practicing and listening. I've never met anyone who I thought was a natural and then not found out later that they struggled and worked at their craft.

So, "slow", I'm certain has something to do with how much time you spend doing, living a breathing it. An hour a day is going to take longer than 12 hours a day. And exposure to good musicians, good music and good advice will be more fruitful than just slogging through and logging your hours.

Ed can certainly speak for himself, but I doubt that he meant strictly elapsed calendar time.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by bassnutj

If this is a very slow process, how did someone like Marc Johnson develop his vocabulary enough to get the Bill Evans gig when he was 21? Remember, he had only been playing jazz for maybe 2-3 years at that point....

http://www.musicianguide.com/biograp...c-Johnson.html

He was 25 according to the above bio and had been studying music piano and cello before picking up the DB at 16. If you did what he did, you'd be sounding like you did do what he did.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by TroyK

I've been transcribing myself. I listen to a lot of records and radio and sing solos over the recordings. Or when I'm waiting for the bus (if I have the bus stop to myself) or am walking my dog, I think of a tune and improvize solos. I find that I've got the ideas that I want to hear in my playing, there is a disconnect between the music that is inside me and what usually comes out through my bass.

So, I sing a solo and then try to play it. Or I record myself singing a chorus of improvization and then transcribe what I sang onto the bass. It's helping me get in touch with my own musical ideas as a player.

Of course, I still transcribe other people and do different things to improve as well, but this is my own technique for the year. Try it, it may have some value to you.

Troy, this is very similar to one of the approaches that Wayne Krantz takes towards playing guitar. Wayne has a super "outside" style and has always sought to be original and unique in his music. One of the practices he suggests is to do what you're doing: pick a particular concept and noodle with it while recording your noodling. Then play it back to yourself and pick out the lines you like and work on them as if you had heard any other great do it. I think he mentioned something in the past about transcribing what you sing as it is a direct way to connect with your "natural voice".

He has a small book out that suggests some really intersting and cool ideas called "The Improviser's OS", available from his own personal site: WayneKrantz.com. I've always been a fan of his and have his book. He's a sideman on Chris Potter's latest album which kicks some major ass.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by bassnutj

If this is a very slow process, how did someone like Marc Johnson develop his vocabulary enough to get the Bill Evans gig when he was 21? Remember, he had only been playing jazz for maybe 2-3 years at that point....

As others have pointed out, it is a result of time put in. What time put in allows you to do is develop skill sets. I have a pretty bad ear, so that's an area I have to put a lot of time into. There are people for whom that's less of an issue, they may start where I am, if you dig.

The other thing to remember, this isn't a destination, it's a process. Buddyro brought up Ben Webster. There's a cat who played some really wonderful music, but pretty much reached a point that he expressed no interest in going past. And if you get a chance, talk to Marc. I'm sure that he's going to talk about his playing as a 25 year old in much different terms than you are seeing it. I get to play with a drummer that worked with Bill and what he's worked on in the years between then and now gives him a perspective that, Yes, the music was what it was. But it wasn't the "bottom of the well" because there is no "bottom".

Look, you're more than welcome to think I'm full of sh*t, it's really no skin off my nose. all I'm doing is relating an approach that got me, personally, to the point that I can play with some kind of meaning and intent and not just speaking gibberish. There are plenty of places around that you can hear what I sound like and if you dig it, this is the work that got me there. If you don't dig it, feel free to dismiss what got me there. I remain remarkably unaffected either way.

[dbcandle]

How about singing and playing in unison? I don't play enough to do that, but it seems like a lot of the greats "sing" through their instrument, sometimes literally singing in unison with their playing.

I've been "in the zone" a few times when I just thought of a musical idea and my fingers magically played it. Is that what you're looking for?

[hdiddy]

No, in the sense of my original intent of this post then you are putting the horse before the cart. Technique only allows certain ideas to be expressed quicker. What I was asking originally is how does one speed up thought processes to come up with faster lines for which the technique has to express, not the other way around.

In other words: How does one imagine musical ideas faster? It's an esoteric question I guess, but I see no other way than what FEDUPQUA said that it's a long slow process to expand ones mental harmonic capacities. This sort of stuff prob came easy to guys like MJ.

Going back to Sam's response (which I needed to read more carefully), I think I will meditate on the "listening faster" mantra. I think there's something there worth noting. When I listen to fast guys, I know I can hear the flurry of notes, but I'm not mentally fast enough to hear each note as it's own entity. If I can't hear something fast, how can I expect to come up with something at the same tempo? Maybe this is where transcribing is important to build "hearing skills" slowly.