Thumb Position Pain

flyingmarcel · #1 07-12-2006, 01:49 PM

Hello All,

I have a question regarding pain in my thumb while playing in thumb position.

I just recently started into the Michael Moore book, as I decided I wanted to get my thumb position playing really together - I have worked on it in the past with my teacher, but not extensively.

What I'm finding is that I have a nerve running along the inside of my thumb which makes it EXTREMELY painful to finger notes with the thumb - I've worked up a pretty decent callous, but the pain is quite sharp (you know, like hitting a nerve...)

Does anyone else share this strange physiology? Any suggestions would be much appreciated, as I initially thought I could just tough out the pain until my thumb got used to it, but have realised there is no way I can go on this way.

thanks,

fm

Alex Scott · #2 07-12-2006, 04:48 PM

where does your thumb touch the string, and what kind of feeling is it. Can you describe it more?

Are you playing harmonics, pushing down notes?

How high are your strings there, what kind of strings are they?

Are your strings high tension?

Whatever it is it should not hurt, maybe a little burning while you are practicing and developing a callous.

How long are you doing this everyday? what kind of build up and stamina do you have?

If you had a sudden desire to perfect this, you must not try to do it overnight. That is a good way to get hurt.

flyingmarcel · #3 07-12-2006, 05:22 PM

Hi Alex and thank you for the reply. I'll try to answer all of the questions you posted...

Are you playing harmonics, pushing down notes?

It is only when I'm pushing down notes, playing harmonics is fine

How high are your strings there, what kind of strings are they?

I am using Helicore Hybrid Light gauge strings, I would say my action is moderate, whatever that means to you

Are your strings high tension?

No

How long are you doing this everyday? what kind of build up and stamina do you have?

I am only practicing thumb position for around 20 mins to half an hour each day - My usual practice time is a minimum of two hours a day, but I like to practice a number of things in this time - Don't want to let other things slip while I'm learning something new!

The pain is a very sharp sudden pain. I am using the sort of thick meaty part of the thumb, just above the nuckle (but on the side of the thumb)

Thanks again for all your help,

fm

Cory Palmer · #4 07-12-2006, 07:32 PM

Does the pain happen right when you start playing in thumb position or does it start after you've been playing for a little bit?

I think I know the kind of pain you are talking about. It usually happens when my muscles start getting tired and I starting trying to use different muscle groups to keep the thumb pressed down. When you feel the pain stop playing and let your arm rest or try shaking your arm out for a second and adjust the position of your arm and hand.

Ike Harris · #5 07-12-2006, 08:42 PM

I've been readjusting to the more modern style of thumb position playing as in the Moore book and would suggest maybe tuning down the strings in practice to the point where you're not getting any pain(and/or adjust bridge lower). Just to get used to how the technique works and very gradually work into the regular tuning. Or use very loose strings like Correllis for a while. It's not going to come overnight, give it as much time as it needs to feel natural. It may take months, just be patient with it. It's not any fun to play if you're hurting.

Ike

Alex Scott · #6 07-12-2006, 09:36 PM

Ike has some great suggestions. I would add that when you do something and you are learning the technique, maybe even cut it down to 5 or 10 minutes, paying attention to what your hands are doing, what muscles you are using, what you are doing immediately before and after, and most of all, where the tension is.

Only by taking it completely apart and putting it back together for many hours will you get any better.

I also think getting a good basic setup in thumb position with your thumb on the octave harmonic so it knows how to act without pushing down will help a lot.

Also, it you find the dead node of the string at the octave with your thumb, press straight down and hear the pitch change, I think your strings are too high, as someone unfamiliar with thumb positions

flyingmarcel · #7 07-12-2006, 10:48 PM

Wow!

Thanks for all the great advice, very much appreciated!

After reading back on my posts, as well as everyone else's, I have a few things to add that will perhaps help to clarify my situation -

a) I am not completely new to thumb position playing - I've been practicing this technique for close to a year, but to this point used my thumb exlusively to play harmonics, or finger the occasional note where necessary. In this time, I never experienced pain in my thumb once. However, the Moore book seems to use the thumb A LOT more than I am use to, which may have aggravated the problem

b) The pain is always in the same spot and is not due to muscle fatigue. The pain either happens or it doesn't, making me think I may have a superficial nerve in my thumb - The best analogy I can draw would be if you have a cavity in your tooth and drink/eat something the wrong way - you KNOW its there instantly. Sometimes I'll play through a passage and think, wow problem fixed no pain at all - Next time, I have to stop after only a bar or so - I hope I am wrong about the nerve thing, as that would not be correctible, but technique would be....

Thanks guys,

fm

Alex Scott · #8 07-13-2006, 02:25 PM

well, don't rule out that your technique may cause you to pinch a nerve. Do you keep a journal of your practice? Maybe that would help you keep track and narrow it down.

I would also ask your teacher or anyone else who can watch you play.

jfv · #9 07-13-2006, 03:58 PM

I am working on Thumb position, but from a arco
Rabbath environment. If you think you get pain
playing pizz try it with a bow

Ike's suggestion is a good one, I am using corelli
370 Mediums, they are light and low tension.

But it sounds like you may have some physiological
kinda issue at which point you should stop talking
to people on the net, get down to a family doctor
and talk with him

Don Higdon · #10 07-13-2006, 04:53 PM

I'll tell you what Michael Moore told me - Wrap a strip of tape around your thumb, covering the part that hurts. It takes time to build a callus. The callus will build up even though you're using the tape.
And by the way, Michael Moore has taped his thumb.

Later edit: I neglected your comment that you have a callus already. In this case, you should visit an MD to determine if there's a medical problem that needs attention.

Jeff Guevin · #11 07-13-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfv

But it sounds like you may have some physiological
kinda issue at which point you should stop talking
to people on the net, get down to a family doctor
and talk with him

If I were you, I'd try to rule that out before spending a lot of time and pain hoping it goes away. If you can reproduce that "pinched nerve" feeling just by squeezing your thumb with your fingers, then IMHO that's pretty unusual and deserves a look by a doctor.

flyingmarcel · #12 07-13-2006, 09:31 PM

Hi Guys and thanks for the advice!

I think a visit to the ol' doctor is in order as a) I do have a callous on my thumb so it can't be the "break in" stage I'm experiencing b) It happens very suddenly and is quite sharp and c) YES, I can reproduce the pain without a bass anywhere in site.

Its funny that this problem never crept up before - as I said, I have played in thumb position for sometime, but typically used my thumb as an anchor at the octave, never straying much above a C or D on the G string. For this reason, I rarely used my thumb in thumb position - But by rarely I don't mean never.

I'l book an appointment to see a doctor about it and let you all know how that goes - It might be useful info for the next person who has this problem! Might as well get the info on the Canadian Government's dime! (sort of....)

Or, maybe I'll just get it checked out while I'm at work tomorrow! (My day gig is working in a laboratory in a veterinary teaching hospital...) Can't be TOO much different right????

Thanks guys,

fm

jfv · #13 07-14-2006, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingmarcel

Or, maybe I'll just get it checked out while I'm at work tomorrow! (My day gig is working in a laboratory in a veterinary teaching hospital...) Can't be TOO much different right????

fm

You're KIDDING right? I can see it now, he goes and asks
a vet about his sore paw, er finger... will probably get
yourself declawed or something

Don Higdon · #14 07-14-2006, 05:12 AM

I guess he'll have to be on all fours on the examination table.

ToR-Tu-Ra · #15 07-15-2006, 02:08 AM

Just don't let them pet you too much, you might get spoiled

flyingmarcel · #16 07-15-2006, 07:44 AM

So guys,

I'm back from the vet - Got dewormed, declawed, and they put me on a new diet to help my coat look shiny and feel soft - Just kidding (Sorry, I forget that sarcasm is difficult to convey over the internet!)

All that aside, I'll keep ya posted on my outcome at the doc (HUMAN)

fm

Don Higdon · #17 07-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingmarcel

I'll keep ya posted on my outcome at the doc (HUMAN)

But what if he's a...Quack?

Martin Sheridan · #18 07-17-2006, 02:45 PM

I have the same problem, but it started after I let a chisel slip and cut into the base of my thumb. My thumb feels normal,
but if I touch it with a finger, it's like there is a line going from the base of the thumb on the top side to the base on the palm side. The left side feels normal, but anywhere on the other side of that line it feels like it's asleep. As I mentioned, it only feels this way if I touch it.
If I play a note with the thumb, the pressure on the string causes a real screaming pain.Since the accident occured about ten years ago, and I'm still having the problem, I don't think it's going to get any better.

I mostly play improv and I'm not a big fan of being a cellist on the bass, but when I do want those notes I have to try to avoid using the thumb and just use my fingers.

So, you could in fact have an injury, and it might not be a bad idea to have a neurologist check it out.

In the meantime I almost took my little finger off in a shop accident last April and haven't been able to use that finger either. I think it is starting to heal at last. I was able to play without pain for the first time the other day for a short while.
If that doesn't get better, I guess I'm going to have to learn to play a different way like Django Reinhart had to do with guitar after his accident.

I always tell bass players who want to study with me that they need to decide which is more important: playing or making, because one slip in the shop can end your playing days forever.

flyingmarcel · #19 07-17-2006, 03:42 PM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the response. I'm sorry to hear about your injuries, but I do think your "play or make" question is very insiteful.....Definately a good thing for people interested in both sides to think about.

As for playing with my thumb, I've currently decided to do what I was doing before ie. Using my thumb sparingly and use my 1st, 2nd, 3rd fingers to do the bulk of the playing. Its not the exact method described in the book, but its much more comfortable for me and I get around on the instrument much better (and without pain!)

I still plan to visit the doc to see about possible nerve problems, but for now I'm back playing the way I was....The book is great for thumb position excercises - By far the most useful method book I've purchased (for me anyway - Not to take away from the others that I have, which are also fantastic!)

Thanks,

fm

Ike Harris · #20 07-19-2006, 01:47 PM

Martin and/or Marcel-

The technique I've been using before is one that is described in the(I think)now out-of-print Barry Green method book, where you primarily use the thumb as a support piece and the 1-2-3 as the operative fingering. This, to me, sounds more solid for jazz pizz, where the thumb-as-finger approach has a more hollow, ringing effect, but is more fluid in string crossing, etc. If you have serious problems in the more modern approach you may want to investigate the thumb-as-support route.

Ike