Thumb position: please explain!

[Bass]

Would someone please help me get started using the thumb position?

A detailed explanation would be of great help. For example:

1. Which part of the side of the thumb do you press with?
2. Does the position of the body shift, relative to the bass?
3. How is the left arm positioned?
4. Which fingers are used? Which part of the finger do I press with?

I am supposed to be working on scales over 2 octaves before my next lesson. This is fine for E, F and G, but A, B, C and D move quite high up the neck. My instructor showed me thumb position very quickly, but it's much harder than it looks.

I find thumb position extremely awkward and uncomfortable. Please help!

[fdeck]

Related question, just thought I'd add it to the same thread. I owned a copy of Evolving Upward, by Rufus Reid, which was all about thumb position. But I lost it more than a decade ago. Now I would like to improve my thumb position. Has Evolving Upward been merged into The Evolving Bassist in the new edition?

[Jeff Moote]

I've got advice to offer not so much on thumb playing, but on playing basic stuff in TP. My teacher has taken me well into TP for scales and such so that I can start to build my sense of tone up there, but I just play 1-2-3 and don't bother with the thumb.

Obviously for technical passages, you will need to learn to finger +-1-2-3 but for scales and intonation work, you should be fine without the thumb.

To answer some of your questions though...
1. the side of the tip... get your teacher to show you properly
2. not much, if at all
3. it should naturally just reach to where you need to go. This may vary depending on the height of the shoulders on your bass. Again, ask your teacher to show you.
4. use 4 digits to stop notes: Thumb (notated +) 1,2,3. Use the tips of 1,2,3 as normal.

[damonsmith]

FIrst I'd get a copy of the Pettrachi method. Also, get after usig the thumb right away, it takes a while to get it to pull it's weight as a finger, so start sooner than later. Use it at the end of a G scale up the G string, etc.
I like to to lay the neck on my shoulder like Rabbath and others, making your arms totally free, and you can reach it on all four strings.
Do your exercises on all four strings to build strength.
Practice long tones up there arco.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Related question, just thought I'd add it to the same thread. I owned a copy of Evolving Upward, by Rufus Reid, which was all about thumb position. But I lost it more than a decade ago. Now I would like to improve my thumb position. Has Evolving Upward been merged into The Evolving Bassist in the new edition?

Possibly, but I'm not sure. It's a great book all by itself, though! I was just checking out my copy yesterday. Rufus has a good way of passing on info in a way that's clear and intuitive. I'd love to get some lessons from him.

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Related question, just thought I'd add it to the same thread. I owned a copy of Evolving Upward, by Rufus Reid, which was all about thumb position. But I lost it more than a decade ago. Now I would like to improve my thumb position. Has Evolving Upward been merged into The Evolving Bassist in the new edition?

As far as I'm aware that is the case. Rufus Reid's book is definitely a must-have.

I've had good results with Michael Moore's thumb-position book - there's another thread on this that's worth searching for.

Andy

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Do your exercises on all four strings to build strength.
Practice long tones up there arco.

Ouch.

Long tones in TP on the E string.

Theres an activity I'm sure to suck at.

[jazzbass72]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Obviously for technical passages, you will need to learn to finger +-1-2-3 but for scales and intonation work, you should be fine without the thumb.

Ouch, fine without the thumb, are you serious?! Cutting the thumb out of the picture limits your playing possibilities considerably. Use that thumb, most definitely!

-Marco

[Andy Allen]

I suggest taking a close look at some of Marco's video clips on his web site. This will inspire you to buy a 'plane ticket to New York and get some lessons in person

Andy

[jazzbass72]

Originally Posted by Andy Allen

I suggest taking a close look at some of Marco's video clips on his web site. This will inspire you to buy a 'plane ticket to New York and get some lessons in person

Andy

Andy, how much do I owe you?

How's Isabella Juzeka? She surely used to enjoy being played in thumb position, LOL!

-Marco

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by jazzbass72

How's Isabella Juzeka? She surely used to enjoy being played in thumb position, LOL!

-Marco

Very fine, very fine - she responds to the thumb exquisitely .

I'll be waxing lyrical about her in the "Basses:Juzek" thread once I get the time.

Andy

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by jazzbass72

Ouch, fine without the thumb, are you serious?! Cutting the thumb out of the picture limits your playing possibilities considerably. Use that thumb, most definitely!

-Marco

I didn't mean to suggest you don't use/develop the thumb. I simply meant that for developing a sound in that range, you can get by without when you start to practice long tones, etc.

To actually have facility in the upper register, the thumb is a must for sure.

[vier-personen]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

FIrst I'd get a copy of the Pettrachi method.

don´t want to hijack the thread, but damon, could you tell me a little about the pettrachi method vs. the simandl book 2 (because in another thread you mentioned you worked on the simandl book)?
also, how does the Ludwig Streicher Method fit in this picture?

[vier-personen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I didn't mean to suggest you don't use/develop the thumb. I simply meant that for developing a sound in that range, you can get by without when you start to practice long tones, etc.

To actually have facility in the upper register, the thumb is a must for sure.

I was at a masterclass with swiss bassplayer Heiri Känzig (if you haven´t checked him out, do, he is a technical monster) and he suggested to start working the thumb possitions withouth thumb untill the switch there is fluent and the 3rd finger is strong - wich it most likely isn´t, because it´s not used in the neck positions (except you use 4-finger pivot technique). his point was that once this works, the implementation of the thumb is not a big deal.
I thought about this and I guess it´s clever, because you work on one thing at a time - you play to the octave (3rd finger) till this is allright, then say ´till a or c on the 1st string (switch), than start using the tumb. migth be a working concept...

[Bass]

Many thanks for the tips. So let me get this straight: I can lean the bass on my shoulder to make it easier to get at the notes. Otherwise everything else is pretty much the same.

It still feels very awkward reaching the upper registers. I feel like I'm bent over the bass, and I'm gonna give myself a backache and sore arms / shoulders reaching for the notes.

I realize there are good books on this technique, but I don't have them. I searched the forum and failed to find a good description or explanation. I don't see anything in the stickys either.

[hdiddy]

Not neccessarily. I'm being taught out of Simandl book 2. I've been told not to rest the neck on the shoulder. You can do that if it happens accidentally but I've been told not to make it a habit. When I do it, it makes my posture really bad. I get more finger strength with the left hand if I don't rest the bass on my shoulder. Also, the left forearm shouldn't rest on the upper bout for probably the same reason.

TP feels weird at first and takes getting used to. Remember to bend at the hips, not at back or waist. Best thing to do is get a teacher. There's alot more posture involved than playing at half position. It's one of those things that is learned better in person.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm a cello sitter, so it's a little different, but when I stand, I like the feeling of the bass being on my shoulder; in fact, I find it easier to play in tune like that than when I'm playing in the lower positions and the bass isn't as secured on a fixed point.

For me, the big thing to watch for in TP is positioning your body so that the full weight of the left arm is used to stop the notes in the left hand. In this way, the thumb just gets kind of "locked out" into position on that particular axis, and then the arm weight can do all of the work. When you feel the TP power coming from the torso, a lot of good things start happening. Good luck!

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by vier-personen

don´t want to hijack the thread, but damon, could you tell me a little about the pettrachi method vs. the simandl book 2 (because in another thread you mentioned you worked on the simandl book)?
also, how does the Ludwig Streicher Method fit in this picture?

-I am real geek so I like to check out all the methods. I feel like Petracchi is very clear and solid, he presents some new ideas Simandl doesn't cover. I have not checked out Streicher much yet. I have a ton of his lps and he is amazing, not mention Michael Moore studied his method, I have to guess there is some good information in there.

I also play two octave scales up all four strings everyday. Another good one is a D major scale up the g string starting with the thumb on D.
Like Marco says not using the thumb is a bad idea.

[vier-personen]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

-I am real geek so I like to check out all the methods. I feel like Petracchi is very clear and solid, he presents some new ideas Simandl doesn't cover. I have not checked out Streicher much yet. I have a ton of his lps and he is amazing, not mention Michael Moore studied his method, I have to guess there is some good information in there.

the streicher books are very good, but they are not for everyone. I have 4 of them (I´m not sure how many volumes it has), but I only made it to the half of the second one by now. it´s pretty hard; it´s a bit like simandl a step furhter. volume one is only about open strings and half position. then he goes from position to position with some technically very challenging studies for a beginner. some of them are just 2 or 3 bars long, but I sometimes need to spent half an hour every day for a week on just two bars to master it with proper technique and good intonation... so progress here is slow. but it pays off in the end.

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Like Marco says not using the thumb is a bad idea.

I agree! I was just referring to the concept of starting to work on TP without thumb because I think this way it´s more clear to learn that there is basically no difference in finger pressure, etc. than in the neck positions. (I have to apologize for my english, it´s still hard for me to formulate complicated thoughts)
it´s hard to talk about this without showing it in real life. as skuli sverisson said (or quoted?) :"talking about music is like dancing about architecture"

[damonsmith]

pretty much the only thing keeping me from the Streicher is not having them on hand. I even did the Billie using 1-3-4 for a couple weeks.
I like to know about all of it.
Also, dancing about architecture is not such a bad idea:
http://www.ubu.com/film/cunningham.html