Time, feel, and groove.

[JavierBass]

I've been getting alot of comments about my time feel regarding having a more driving and aggressive feel. My professors tell me that I can keep a steady tempo, but it will groove most of the times, and it has lapses here and there, and they point to my problem being that I don't maintain a consistent groove. What are your guys concepts on groove and time? I always practice with a metronome on 2 and 4, and play along with recordings, and I've also heard things about drum loops, do you guys have any suggestions for really getting a pocket and getting a steady swinging groove?

[Dogbertday]

i like to think in big beats... almost thinking in phrase... think looooong... like if it's an uptempo tune I like to think about it in 4 bar phrases and that's where I bob my head. By thinking in these terms my time doesn't change but I relax and breathe more allowing the music to just flow

[Dogbertday]

forgot to mention... more down tempo tunes I might cut it down to one bar at the least. this also has helped me thing melodically as opposed to by each note

[JavierBass]

Well, that's not really my issue, in terms of keeping a steady tempo over several bars or from beginning to end. Rather it's a deal where, my overall tempo will be steady, but from note to note it's not always consistent, so I'll have sometimes where a bar will start to rush, I'll notice and then I drag it back down, and it's tempo fluctuations that are my problem. I'll be grooving for a chorus, it'll get funky for 2 measures, it'll get grooving again. I guess my main problem is consistency, and the problem is more groove than it is tempo.

[JavierBass]

My professor had me doing metronome games during my lessons where he would turn off the metronome and turn it back on to see if I stayed on tempo, and normally I would stay with the beat, although after a few choruses I lost it, but the big deal is that even though I stayed with the metronome, it didn't sound comfortable, or swinging or grooving, and sometimes I had to adjust a tad bit when the metronome came back on.

[Marc Piane]

I've found that those issues sometimes arise when you think too much about what you are playing. Think of it this way. As soon as an extra thought process enters into the signal chain there is a greater chance of losing the groove. A walking line has to be second nature in order groove. Only way to do that is to really know a tune so no thought is involved... it just flows.

[JavierBass]

Ha, that's the same thing my teacher told me, that I shouldn't be thinking about my lines as I play them, it should be a natural process and really automatic. In addition to groove, how do you guys go about emulating the grooves of famous players. I really want to emulate that Ray Brown sort of time feel, it's really driving, and I remember in a video Ray Brown said that the bassists time should be so driving and steady that you don't need a drummer to give you time, you have you own time. I really want to have my own internal groove going on. So any suggestions for that in addition to developing "the pocket"?

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by JavierBass

Ha, that's the same thing my teacher told me, that I shouldn't be thinking about my lines as I play them, it should be a natural process and really automatic.

Wow. So I'm not full of **** (this time).

As far as pocket... all you can do is listen, listen, listen. Liten to where he places his quarter note. Listen to how he plays with different drummers. The fact too is when you get down to it you can't play like Ray. For that matter he couldn't have played like you. Rufus talks too about how your lines and groove should outline the rhythm and harmony without anyone else playing.

Good luck. It as an ongoing process.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Remember also that time feel is a physical process, a dance with the bass. When playing at whatever tempo, there are certain sized motions of the right arm/wrist/elbow/shoulder mechanism that allow that tempo to happen and remain steady. Try to become aware of the size of the motion as it relates to the tempo, and to focus on keeping the size of the motion (in my case, I think of circles or ovals) consistent. Bigger motions = slower tempo, smaller motions = faster tempo. When I'm playing with someone who rushes, this is the thing that helps me stay sane and hold the groove down in spite of their hurry. Feeling the physical dance in relation to the music is essential to playing (IMO, of course).

[Wilbyman]

I agree with all of the above. As far as walking goes, I think you have to swing on the quarter note level and the eighth note level to really be locked in what's going on.

I find the 2 and 4 thing can help if you have a tendency to rush (like me) but I have a feeling your problem may be a weak sense of the 1. As Ed Fuqua said on one of these threads "no one ever asks where the 2 (or 4) is". The feeling of rhythmic stability comes from a strong sense of the 1 first IMO.

I feel like my time got better when I forgot about XYZ sub changes (or playing X triad over Y chord) and really got into what the drummer is doing. If you make rhythm the priority it will come out in your playing. All the best musicians I know either play drums or are keenly aware of what the drummer is doing.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

I feel like my time got better when I forgot about XYZ sub changes (or playing X triad over Y chord) and really got into what the drummer is doing. If you make rhythm the priority it will come out in your playing. All the best musicians I know either play drums or are keenly aware of what the drummer is doing.

+1. I actually took several semesters of drum lessons and played in one of the combos when I was in undergrad. Invaluable.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by JavierBass

I always practice with a metronome on 2 and 4,

I would also practice with it on all 4 beats. Not enough people do that. You should also really work on the basic poly-rhythms 3:4 and 12/8.
Being able to pull the quarters out of 12/8 is something bass players end up figuring out but are not taught directly.
Being able to play quarters while counting variations on 12/8 out loud is a great thing to be able to do.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Remember also that time feel is a physical process, a dance with the bass.

IMO, this is the key point and a major thing I'm working on ATM. The beat needs to feel like a dance even if your not actually dancing. If you dance with anybody who's thinking about where they need to put their feet/arms, it doesn't groove. Good dancers just let it happen. They become the beat and them & the groove are inseparable.

As they say with dance, if you have to think about it, then you're not getting it. Practice with a metronome til you don't have to even think about it anymore, and you KNOW you didn't lose it.

[Marc Piane]

I think feeling the groove deep inside is key. For me dancing just happens. I dance quite a bit when I play I'm told... when it is happening.

1. A singer I used to work for complained to me once that I don't move enough when I play. He wanted a show. It was a R&B/Steppers type thing. I responded "I move plenty when the drummer grooves." Nothing kills the mood like a bad drummer.

2. A sax player I work with frequently comments on how such a funky player and good dancer when a bass is involved can be so unfunky and a horrible dancer when the bass is taken out of the picture.

[Eric Hochberg]

A friend of mine was somewhat of a child sax star. He asked his musician father before a performance, "What should I do if my reed is bad and I can't play"? The father replied, "You better start dancing".

[Marc Piane]

Maybe that's why I work.

"Man, that Marc Piane really sucks at the bass but boy can he dance!!!"

[Wilbyman]

Originally Posted by fingers

I think feeling the groove deep inside is key.

I think this is the inconvenient truth of playing music...you either "feel it" or you don't. I think weak time is definitely something that can be remedied but IMO there is no "silver bullet" any more than there is one for getting a big sound, learning tunes, playing bebop, etc etc. However, I feel a personal sense of responsibility/accountability for the time and a genuine interest in rhythm are the first steps to getting strong time. If you posted this thread, you obviously really care about it so you're half way there.

I will post another quote on this thread from Patitucci, who said somewhere "we aspire to inspire other players with our sound and time feel". Once you get a really strong sense of time, it will infect everybody you play with and great things will happen on the stand.

[Treyzer]

Great thread...


Don't have much else to say. Time can always be improved upon, Time is not the drummers responsibility, the harder you try, the worse your time feel will become and the less you'll groove. The unfortunate reality is that some people are blessed with gifts in this and every other area of music and no matter how much you practice, you will not be as good as the greats. Otherwise we'd all be P.C., Scott LaFaro, Eddie Gomez, Ray Brown ect.

Work hard, be the best you can be.

[chris dammann]

Originally Posted by Treyzer

The unfortunate reality is that some people are blessed with gifts in this and every other area of music and no matter how much you practice, you will not be as good as the greats.

Someone i know who studied with Ray Brown once asked Ray why he sounded so good and he anwsered--"I play bass 9 hours a day. of course i sound good." I think very few people who put the hours in have nothing to show for it. we all have something musical to add to the world, just few of us care to work as hard as the greats. just my opinion.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by chris dammann

Someone i know who studied with Ray Brown once asked Ray why he sounded so good and he anwsered--"I play bass 9 hours a day. of course i sound good." I think very few people who put the hours in have nothing to show for it.

That is typically part of the gift; to be able to be that single minded over a long period of time and to put in the time needed.

Just you wait, someone will come on this site and tell us how little time they spend and of course how great they are