On top or behind beat

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by T-Bal

Yeah, that and some poor intonation, bad note choices, lame ideas... where can I get me some of that?

For that kind of stuff, you need a teacher. It just so happens that I am looking for new students...

[Ed Fuqua]

T-BAL - I've found that Dick Johnson's STEPPIN' ON IT to be a valuable resource for just the stuff you're looking for. The section called LEAVING TREADMARKS is especially on point...

[T-Bal]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

T-BAL - I've found that Dick Johnson's STEPPIN' ON IT to be a valuable resource for just the stuff you're looking for. The section called LEAVING TREADMARKS is especially on point...

With all respect, Ed, you can't get this stuff from a book. Guys that are sloppy, didn't get that way from workin' at it...it just come natural.

[Ed Fuqua]

You could always buy it and just not read it...

[rossM]

I have been following this thread with interest - I play reasonably regularly with a very good horn player ( ex Son Seals Blues band - though we do mainstream jazz gig together) . He plays behind the beat - and swears that the drummer should play on top and I should play behind . I am told I play on top of the beat ( I think neccessary because the drummer feels to me as though he is behind - besides it seems to me that I just naturally play on top ).

I confess to having difficulty with knowing exactly where to place it - in all of this - Am I right to keep on top if the drummer is behind - what if the drummer is up on the beat - I am assuming that by and large we ignore where the lead player places it - as we are the time keepers .

Can anyone with experience suggest some classic recordings to listen to as to where the beat is placed -eg I hear Sam Jones and PC as being up on the beat am I right in this - I am not sure who I would suggest as a bass player behind the beat - But the classic big bands tend to me to have that feel - Are there any ?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by JORGE ROSSM

I am not sure who I would suggest as a bass player behind the beat - But the classic big bands tend to me to have that feel - Are there any ?

It's a good question, and I'm not sure about the answer; but part of what we hear on many classic big band recordings is the "signature" way they were recorded - in most cases, there is not a mic close up on the bass, which takes us back to Damon's point about the attack and "bloom" of the bass sound. From a distance, the bass sounds further behind from how it sounds right up front, because without a close mic and without amplification, the attack or "ping" on the front end of the note is the first thing to go.

Way back in undergrad, I was a comp major, which meant writing for orchestra, and I also had to take conducting as part of my degree. One of the first principles I was taught was about the way that the orchestra was set up - the theory my conducting teacher espoused was that the orchestra was set up in such a way as to "align" the attack times of the various instruments so that they would be as "in sync" as possible by the time they reached the audience: therefore, the slowest speking instruments (the strings) were placed in the front, and the quickest speaking (percussion) in the back. This sounds crazy until you conduct an orchestra and feel firsthand the lag of the string section as compared to the percussion and the trumpets. The orchestra ends up compensating somewhat by having the strings play "on top" while the brass and percussion play "on", and still the effect is there. If you've ever sat in the percussion section (I did this a time or two on piano), the effect of the dragging string sound is more amazing still. Psychoacoustics? Maybe, but when you're sitting there in back, it sounds totally different from how it sounds out front.

I think that amplification evens the field a bit, but I think many or even most bass players compensate for the blooming sound of the instrument by subconsciously playing on top just in an effort to perceive the sound as generally "on" the beat. Getting back to the spacial element, I was once shocked at a trio recording session I did with Harry Pickens - the early soundcheck with the close mics sounded too "close" and "modern" for the vibe we were going for, so we had the engineer set up a third mic on the bass about six feet away for a more old school vibe. When we soloed that mic in the mix, the time felt much more relaxed and further "behind" than the close mics did, even at that short difference. Go figure.

[nypiano]

Chris:

This is interesting information. In terms of "acoustic delay" in reference to swing. I notice this sometimes when I play in the cans on my electronic keyboard. When I play without the digital reverb, the sound and the attack is right on top of me-which feels really bad to me and it's harder to swing against the click. When I flick the reverb on, the sound feels further away from me, the delay feels nice that when I'm playing the pocket, it feels much more relaxed.

This is similar to when I'm playing live and there's some room sound. There's enough reverb time for me to play the sound, listen and play the next sound-as if the slight lag gives me some leeway for physically inching right up into the groove by adjusting my attack-quicker or slower. When I play in a dead room-it feels awful to me and this affects everything. And without good time feel the game is lost.


In terms of the saxophonist telling you play behind vs. the drummer on top. I think through airing out on this thread we established that this might be a myth of sorts or at very least an inaccurate discription of what really happens when the band is truly swinging and some members are playing behind or ahead.(with all due respect to bro' Doug who has the most a$$ kickin time feel of any jazz guitarist playing today ). If someone is playing an implied time, then someone else is playing the anchor or the center.

What he's implying though that is that you are "dragging" with him and the drums are ahead. I'm just not sure this will sound good at all. The drums would be going dingdinga ding with the ride and nobody is playing his downbeat ding in this scenario because nobody's playing the beat!

This would mean that the listener's impulse to tap would be to provide the missing true beat that no one is playing and that's what swings--that way? I think this is dubious. I can use my imagination where 3 guys on a triangle are pulling against the center and that this is balanced/swinging etc. But I'm not sure this has basis in sonic reality. Although I'd being willing to bend if someone pointing a record to me where this actually happens.

[jstiel]

I think soloing generally sounds best behind the beat.