Tuning in Fifths...

[jheise]

Hi all,

I did'nt know where exactly to put this post, so perhaps if a mod feels, this should be in another category, please move it.


I did a small experiment yesterday and tuned my bass in fifths. I wanted to do that for quite some time now and as my schedule is free this week, I thought I'd give it a try.

I used the following strings on my 3/4 hybrid: Flatchrome H tuned to C, Flatchrome F# tuned to G, Flexocor D & A. I play a normal orchestral Flexocor-Set on my bass for some years now (I like the pizz-sound, too) so I thought using some strings for bowing would by my first choice.

The low C is extremely undefined and has significantly lower volume as the other strings. I played some fivers at the shop before I bought the strings and can't remember having them so significantly weak H-strings. So I think this could be a sign that my bass is not suited for a low C. The basses at the shop where mostly full size carved old german/french basses. Did you have similar experiences? Would changing strings make a stronger C possible?

But the most important question: How long did it take for you other fifth-tuners to convert? I found that even trying to play some simple tunes (cantaloupe island for example) the new fingerings would be an extreme groove-killer. And not only because my mind did all sorts of tricks on me but also because my hearing expected other note-lengths that were not possible because of jumps that were unnecessary before or wider jumps. How do you deal with that (besides practice for sure )?

Right now I think, my bass sounded better and more even tuned in fourths. I was expecting that the overall sound would enhance as other described after they tuned in fifths, but so far I'm a bit disappointed. That can be because of my choice of strings and perhaps I'm just not patient enough.

What do you think?

Jan

[Vunz]

Hi Jan,

Check Entering the fifths dimension to read about my experiences as a converted fourths player.

Good luck and cheers,

Vincent

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by jheise

I used the following strings on my 3/4 hybrid: Flatchrome H tuned to C[....]
The low C is extremely undefined and has significantly lower volume as the other strings. I played some fivers at the shop before I bought the strings and can't remember having them so significantly weak H-strings. So I think this could be a sign that my bass is not suited for a low C. The basses at the shop where mostly full size carved old german/french basses. Did you have similar experiences? Would changing strings make a stronger C possible?

Pirastro seems to have some problems with low pitch strings.
Even the Flexocor '92 E is weak and flabby.
The Spirocore low C is incredible.
If you want to stick with Pirastro, the Jazzer has a low B available, and I'm confident it'll be great, and possibly be more bowable than the Spirocore.

[kontrabass]

This has been mentioned a lot in various forums, but it seems that most people are talking about other players using fifths and not themselves (though Vunz and a few others are exceptions!).

First, check out these websites:
http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/
and
a Talkbass favorite...Mr. Joel Quarrington

Also (as Francois can attest to), Pirastro is coming out with a set of Obligatos designed to play in fifths (check out their website. Lemur doesn't stock them, yet). Because of the standard string for each open note, you may get a more consistent sound. The fact that they are designed to be played in fifths shouldn't hurt either.

Once Lemur stocks these, I intend to get a pair so I can experiment with chamber groups. It may be less expensive because I am also in the market for an extension.

Whether the major orchestras/more orthodox players in the section will accept bass players who tune their basses to fifths is up to them.

It is also cool to note that cello method books can now be used without changing the fingerings/key/octave.

[jheise]

Thanks for your suggestions so far.

I probably should try a different low C. I love the sound of my bass with Flexocors, so this is the sound I'm going for.

Perhaps I should strive for a satisfying sound first, and think about technical difficulties later. Because if my bass does not sound good on the lowest string, switching to fifths tuning completely misses the point, in my opinion...

How about the different (what's the noun to "to resonate") ... of the strings? I did not have that happening, but from what I read, this is another point for conversion. Otherwise I simply could find me a fiver.



Jan

[spdrswb]

"It is also cool to note that cello method books can now be used without changing the fingerings/key/octave."

Gentlemen, is it right? Can you finger a major 3rd with fingers 1 to 4 on a string on a 105 cm string length? I think, cello players can. So maybe the places where to press fingers are the same but are the fingerings equally?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

(Considering to try it but not so decided...)

[Larry Holloway]

Originally Posted by jheise

But the most important question: How long did it take for you other fifth-tuners to convert? I found that even trying to play some simple tunes (cantaloupe island for example) the new fingerings would be an extreme groove-killer. And not only because my mind did all sorts of tricks on me but also because my hearing expected other note-lengths that were not possible because of jumps that were unnecessary before or wider jumps. How do you deal with that (besides practice for sure )?

Hi Jan:
Welcome to the 5ths club! Good question. I've tuned in 5ths almost 14 years. It took me about 9 months to a year before I could solo with complete confidence. I could read notes, changes and walk lines in 3 to 8 weeks (with confidence).
You are correct: Some of the fingerings seem like 'groove killers' and your ear/hand plays tricks on you. I know, I tuned in 4ths for 20 years before I changed to 5ths. And you are correct again: practice is the fastest way to change. Bachs Cello Suites are the best for getting a feel for the new intonation & intervals. I'll never play them perfectly, but just playing them over & over reinforce my strength & ear.
Just remember, you are re-inventing bass lines in your hands & mind. You'll loose all your 'licks' and will be forced to use your ear & play music again. It's a beautiful change that (to me) will be a life long endeavor. Cantaloupe Island is a perfect example. It's very simple (changes), but to change the bass line/groove is difficult tuned in 5ths.... at first. Minor 3rds are difficult to play in fifths, but 5ths, 7ths, & minor & major 10ths are much easier. You will invent new lines & find new and easier paths to the lines you want to create.

As for your sound & strings: Your instrument should open up once you find the correct strings. I use Thomastiks:
Spirocore low C & G, Dominants for my D & Dominant solo A. This combination is perfect for my bass. Every bass is different. If you prefer the Pirastros, try the Obligatos for 5ths that 'kontrabass' mentioned. Velvet also makes strings for 5th tuning. I've tried them all & still come back to the Thomastiks.
But most important: Listen to Francios! He is THE guru, the 'DB Lama' of strings.
Also check out Silvio Dalla Torre, Rostock University. His web sight has information on 5th tuning www.silviodallatorre.com

[bassist14]

hi jan

there is a set spiros for fifth tuning at german ebay at the moment.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Kontrabass-Saiten...QQcmdZViewItem

[kontrabass]

spdrswb, you are right to question what I said. I guess that a few fingerings will have to change due to the long string length...if not fingerings, then lower position technique (thumb position, pivoting, shifting, etc). The methodbooks will still intrinsically help playing in fifths.

A few questions:

-Mr. Halloway-Do you play the cello suites at pitch? In the lower positions? Do you find that other cello pieces are easier to play?

Is the fifths tuning being accepted among conservatories and professional orchestras?

If I am to have one bass, how can I constantly change between fifths and fourths?

I am seriously curious!

Alex

[bassbaterie]

Originally Posted by jheise

Hi all,

I did'nt know where exactly to put this post, so perhaps if a mod feels, this should be in another category, please move it.


I did a small experiment yesterday and tuned my bass in fifths. I wanted to do that for quite some time now and as my schedule is free this week, I thought I'd give it a try.

I used the following strings on my 3/4 hybrid: Flatchrome H tuned to C, Flatchrome F# tuned to G, Flexocor D & A. I play a normal orchestral Flexocor-Set on my bass for some years now (I like the pizz-sound, too) so I thought using some strings for bowing would by my first choice.

The low C is extremely undefined and has significantly lower volume as the other strings. I played some fivers at the shop before I bought the strings and can't remember having them so significantly weak H-strings. So I think this could be a sign that my bass is not suited for a low C. The basses at the shop where mostly full size carved old german/french basses. Did you have similar experiences? Would changing strings make a stronger C possible?

But the most important question: How long did it take for you other fifth-tuners to convert? I found that even trying to play some simple tunes (cantaloupe island for example) the new fingerings would be an extreme groove-killer. And not only because my mind did all sorts of tricks on me but also because my hearing expected other note-lengths that were not possible because of jumps that were unnecessary before or wider jumps. How do you deal with that (besides practice for sure )?

Right now I think, my bass sounded better and more even tuned in fourths. I was expecting that the overall sound would enhance as other described after they tuned in fifths, but so far I'm a bit disappointed. That can be because of my choice of strings and perhaps I'm just not patient enough.

What do you think?

Jan

Jan, Silvio Dalla Torre is just an hour away from you in Rostock - he is an expert on strings and fifths tuning. fire him an email sidato@web.de there are some new strings about to hit the market. Let him take a look at your bass; he also has method books and addresses the issue of converting from fourths fingering. Plus is a wonderful person to know.

[Larry Holloway]

Originally Posted by kontrabass

A few questions:

-Mr. Halloway-Do you play the cello suites at pitch? In the lower positions? Do you find that other cello pieces are easier to play?

I play them in the lower positions. Of course some of the dbl. stops are nearly impossible, but I'm only using the suites for practice/ maintenance, not for a performance.
I really haven't worked on other cello pieces. I'm still trying to get thru this one.

Originally Posted by kontrabass

Is the fifths tuning being accepted among conservatories and professional orchestras?

I think so. In my mind anyway. Joel Quarrington tunes in 5ths & he's principal (I think) with Toronto Symphony.
Also Sivio Dalla Torre teaches & plays both tuning at Rostock University.

If I am to have one bass, how can I constantly change between fifths and fourths?

I don't know. Probably not possible unless you're constantly changing strings, which isn't a good idea.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by kontrabass

If I am to have one bass, how can I constantly change between fifths and fourths?

Well, you could have one solo string (G TO A). Have the D of your choice and the 2 lower strings could be high tention orchestra strings tuned down to G and C. Or you could do what Edgar Meyer does and have in all solo tuning and have a C extention in orchestra tuning. Or just have a C extention with all strings in regular orchestra tuning except have a high A instead of G. Either way you still have the range.

Any one ever thought of a bass tuned in 5th and have a G# extention on the C? or a 5 string bass in 5ths with a high E tuned like a violin with a 5th string. Or add the G# extention to that. With a long fingerboard ( I got on on my JUZEK HAHA) imagine the range top to bottom wow.

[jheise]

@bassist14: Danke! Da werde ich wohl mitbieten, auch wenn ich kein ebay-Freund bin...

@the rest:
Thanks for your suggestions, I think I'm going to try to meet Mr. Dalla Torre.

Jan

[bassman1489]

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

Well, you could have one solo string (G TO A). Have the D of your choice and the 2 lower strings could be high tention orchestra strings tuned down to G and C. Or you could do what Edgar Meyer does and have in all solo tuning and have a C extention in orchestra tuning. Or just have a C extention with all strings in regular orchestra tuning except have a high A instead of G. Either way you still have the range.

Any one ever thought of a bass tuned in 5th and have a G# extention on the C? or a 5 string bass in 5ths with a high E tuned like a violin with a 5th string. Or add the G# extention to that. With a long fingerboard ( I got on on my JUZEK HAHA) imagine the range top to bottom wow.

having an extension defeats the purpose of tuning in 5ths. with the capo closed, you are in E G D A. yeah that doesn't work. one of the main reasons for tuning in 5ths is RESONANCE. i don't know how to describe it, but the sound is so much more full. if you have an extension tuned to C, then you kill the resonance, as well as making fingerings somewhat impossible.

you have the wrong idea here mcnaire. people who tune in 5ths do not do it for the range. people don't learn entirely new fingerings just for 4 extra low notes. they buy extensions. and no, a G# (i'm assuming you mean below the C) would just be absolutely ridiculous. first of all, a string cannot be made to play that low. and second, it would sound TERRIBLE. pianos don't even go that low. a piano can hit a half step above that, but go look at the string. it's like half an inch thick. and it sounds bad. maybe you should be banned again...

[bassman1489]

oh and about silvio dalla torre...if you haven't heard his cd "Songs, Chansons, and Elegies", it's really fantastic. he is playing a small bass tuned G D A E. his tone is incredible, and considering the not-so-common techniques he uses, his intonation is dead-on. (for you simandl-purists, take note that he uses 4 finger technique, and 5 finger technique in thumb position. he actually goes beyond 4 finger technique: for example, to play the notes C D E F on the G string, he might finger it 1 2 3 4, by just pivoting.)

it's really a great cd, i highly recommend it

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by bassman1489

you have the wrong idea here mcnaire. people who tune in 5ths do not do it for the range. people don't learn entirely new fingerings just for 4 extra low notes. they buy extensions. and no, a G# (i'm assuming you mean below the C) would just be absolutely ridiculous. first of all, a string cannot be made to play that low. and second, it would sound TERRIBLE. pianos don't even go that low. a piano can hit a half step above that, but go look at the string. it's like half an inch thick. and it sounds bad. maybe you should be banned again...

Please play nice with the other children. Or if not, at least be witty about it.

FWIW, there are EBG's that go down to a low F#.

[bassman1489]

i assume EBG stands for electric bass guitar. that doesn't surprise me. i guess that's cool to have on a bass guitar, but it just wouldn't work on a double bass.

[Aaron Saunders]

Well, no, I agree...in any case, there's ACTUALLY another electric bass or two tuned a fourth BELOW that F#. Jauqo over on the BG side has what he calls a "Subcontra Bass" that's tuned C#-F#-B-E. Pretty wild stuff, sounds awesome.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Please play nice with the other children. Or if not, at least be witty about it.

FWIW, there are EBG's that go down to a low F#.

There is some one (forgot who it was) on this board who said they have 5 string low B with a F# extension so no one could "out low" them. I think having those super low growling notes would be great to have. And, if your out of tune no one could tell the difference lol.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by bassman1489

maybe you should be banned again...

Be patient gimme a week or so LOL.

I tuned my strings in 5ths today. I know I could get the specific sound people talk about because they were on orch strings (tuned G up and A&E down). It was very unique and challenging to do simple scales. Very fun but not for me. For me I'll be a 4rths man for my days. It would be easier if some one learned to play bass in 5ths from the start. Maybe I'll have my kids on 5ths...maybe not. 4ths POWER!!!