Upright Volume

[LoeBase]

High guys. I need some help from the fourm. I play straight ahead jazz. I play an Eastman upright bass. I use an underwood pickup and an acoustic image contra amp (the original model). I mostly play in trios and quartets. I play in restaurants and bars. I'm not having luck being heard though. The bass seems to play loud enough unplugged when I'm alone, but when I plug up and a drummer joins the mix I'm lost.

I used to play through a swr workingman 12 for a while. I recently switched to the acoustic image, and although the tone is pure gold, I'm still having trouble being heard. I thought I had my action too low possibly, but I sat in on a friends gig who had his action lower on his bass than mine. He was playing through a swr working 10, yet his volume was much louder than mine. He plays that small amp with quintets in large rooms and his heard fine. Yet I play with a trio in a small rooms and have to crank all the way up to be heard.

Could my eq be causing the trouble? Should I try a different pickup? I have an old fishman. Should I try a different amp? Help me please!!!

[Gornick]

It's the amp. I have had a hard time with the contra and projecting so that my bandamtes and myself can hear. Often it sounds fine in the far corner of the room becuase of the way the amp floods the floor, but it doesn't cut it on stage.

I solved the problem by getting a seperate cab, and placing it at chest level at least, so that it is at least pointing to my ears, instead of hell.


Others will have differing experiences.

[damonsmith]

Get a new Drummer, or do without them altogether. Seriously.

[jfv]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Get a new Drummer, or do without them altogether. Seriously.

LOL, really, make him play with just snare and brushes, oh ok
hi hat too if he begs Drummers are a lot like brass players
in the symphony, just grown up kids that are always noisy

[JimmyM]

Me, I think it's the pickup. Old Fishman pickups not only aren't very loud but they don't sound that good.

[jimclark68]

Loe, I've got an Eastman bass as well, and I find it to be pretty quiet - nice tone, but quiet. It's new, so I figure on a long time before it's opened up. I also had a Contra EX cabinet for a while, which was near useless except in drummerless settings with players who knew how to listen. I did find that by using an amp stand, I could position the speaker in such a way that I got more sound out of it. I've got a Quik Lok stand that enabled me to either have the cab kicked back almost 45 degrees, or it could rest upright but very high off the floor. Regardless, I tossed the AI cab and bought an EA. I really liked the tone of the AI cab, too, but it just didn't cut it except in very quiet settings.

[Eric Hochberg]

I have played gigs with the original contra using an underwood P/U and had no trouble volume wise, and this was with Larry Coryell and Paul Wertico, not exactly quiet players! You might be projecting fine in the room even though you are having trouble on stage. Try moving the amp farther away from you. You also might want to try using a preamp with the underwood. Do you dig into the strings or do you play lightly? This can make a huge difference, too.

[damonsmith]

I am still going to vote for standing up for yourself with the drummer. If firing them is not an option, take away his amplifier privlages.
I did that to a drummer and it worked. I told him he played the same amount louder with or with out an amp so stop using one with him.
At last resort, a little public humiliation can work: a listener will come up and suggest getting an amp to which you reply, " no, I just need a different drummer" in front of the drummer.
There is no excuse for a drummer in small jazz group to be playing louder than an amplified bassist no matter what gear they have. It is immature and unprofessional and allowing them to keep doing it won't do them any favors in the long run.

The only other things I would suggest:
* Make the drummer bring an amp for you. This is a good strategy and I have used it often. Tell them they can either play at a reasonable volume or bring you a big amp. Then they have a choice.

* if you are not using spirocores I would start. They just cut better than most strings.

* Do some busking, playing outside really helps strengthen your sound. I rarely need an amp even without loud free jazz players.

* Play unamplified, in other words give the other players something they want to hear. I used use an amp all the time with my teachers drummer, and he would always be too loud, once I did not bring the amp and he said, "I just love the sound of acoustic bass!" and played beautiful and transparent the whole time.

* Make sure all your power is coming from your shoulders in both hands.
don't squeeze with the left hand, pull the strings down with the left arm.
For the right use your whole arm until the tempo is too fast.
Don't use the two finger technique until you have to, even then pump your arm in a kind of flapping motion. With luck it will accent the two and four!

* Remember that the underwood and fishman both function as bridge mutes. They kill a lot of the acoustic sound. I would look into other options. I use an old polytone and it works great.

[bassdogEmer]

Hi, just as an alternative school of thought to pursue. Where on your fingerboard do you pluck? I spent some time focusing on this - it's similar to a golf stance (if you play then you will know what I mean!) in other words, you place the ball at different points depending on the results you want. I often play nyc gigs with no amp. When I am walking, I pluck pretty close to the END of my fingerbaord, this will give you a more focused sound (this can be interpreted as louder). You will find it's hard at first because the string is stiffer near the bottom but with some practice and just overall experience doing it - you will find it becomes much easier and you will have a thump that cuts thru. You will also not be plucking very hard yet the sound will be huge. I find that that hitting the string in this area brings out more mids and really helps the center of the note come thru. I got this from some lessons I took with Bob Hurst and Ray Brown. Also, beware of blaming other mitigating factors on creating or not solving the problem. I.E. asking another musician on the bandstand to change how he or she plays to better suite your needs is not a good idea in my opinion. Firsdt of all, It's not their issue to begin with and more importantly it could get you thrown out of a band. I know drummers can be loud - and that will not change. Also, while amplification is something to always explore and keep an open mind to, I would also be wary of thinking that amps or pick ups can solve your problems. They are just one ever changing part of the puzzle and the more developed that you can get just with your instrument alone - the better it will sound thru an amp
just my two cents - good luck!
bassdog

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

Hi, just as an alternative school of thought to pursue. Where on your fingerboard do you pluck? I spent some time focusing on this - it's similar to a golf stance (if you play then you will know what I mean!) in other words, you place the ball at different points depending on the results you want. I often play nyc gigs with no amp. When I am walking, I pluck pretty close to the END of my fingerbaord, this will give you a more focused sound (this can be interpreted as louder). You will find it's hard at first because the string is stiffer near the bottom but with some practice and just overall experience doing it - you will find it becomes much easier and you will have a thump that cuts thru. You will also not be plucking very hard yet the sound will be huge. I find that that hitting the string in this area brings out more mids and really helps the center of the note come thru. I got this from some lessons I took with Bob Hurst and Ray Brown. Also, beware of blaming other mitigating factors on creating or not solving the problem. I.E. asking another musician on the bandstand to change how he or she plays to better suite your needs is not a good idea in my opinion. Firsdt of all, It's not their issue to begin with and more importantly it could get you thrown out of a band. I know drummers can be loud - and that will not change. Also, while amplification is something to always explore and keep an open mind to, I would also be wary of thinking that amps or pick ups can solve your problems. They are just one ever changing part of the puzzle and the more developed that you can get just with your instrument alone - the better it will sound thru an amp
just my two cents - good luck!
bassdog

+ 1 on plucking at the end of the fingerboard, I got it from John Lindberg, It also allows you to put the string slightly lower thus getting more sustain with the same sound.
-1 on not standing up for yourself. Another musician playing in a way that prevents other musicians from being heard is their problem, not the other way around. Being passive about it is a bad idea.
We should note that OP said he plays "Straight ahead jazz", which means he should not be dealing with rock volumes.

[Cory Palmer]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

* Play unamplified, in other words give the other players something they want to hear. I used use an amp all the time with my teachers drummer, and he would always be too loud, once I did not bring the amp and he said, "I just love the sound of acoustic bass!" and played beautiful and transparent the whole time.

This makes me think of a problem with playing classical music with an accompanist. The pianist tends to play louder when the top is closed all the way. If the top is opened just a little the pianist can hear themselves better and will end up playing softer and listen to your playing more.

It sounds like a similar situation with playing amplified verses unamplified. I imagine if the sound is more pure the other musicians on the stage will be able to hear what you are playing better and will be able to blend with your sound easier.

[bikerbassplayer]

I worked with a drummer who insisted on druming while I
was playing my solo. I ended that problem by playing while
he played his solo. The piano player and drummer were both
PO'D but it solved my problem. Please DO stick up for what
or however you need too. Drummers are A--H---S IMHO !!
Sorry for the rant but the thread hit a sore spot.

[bikerbassplayer]

By the way LoeBase, I also use an underwood pickup with
a Polytone Brute amp (15" spkr) and have never had any
problems with volume. Some of my gigs are outdoors with
a big band(17 pieces) so I dont think it is your pickup but
I have no experience with your amp so I cant comment on
it. When needed I use an old AMpeg bass spkr cab with two
15's as an extension spkr and that works fine. Good luck on
your gigs. Hope I helped.

[Phil Smith]

Get your amp up off of the ground and away from you. If you're using the contra i.e. the downfiring woofer, put it on a high chair, it makes a huge difference. If you're using a standard front firing cabinet, put it on a chair as well or if it must be on the floor, point it upwards.

[Phil Smith]

Oh, and tell you drummer that the best drummers have dynamics and can deliver energy without drowning everyone out.

[Adrian Cho]

Personally I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions here. I don't think anyone can really say exactly what the problem is without hearing the group. I went through many years of having trouble being heard. I think there may be many factors. The AI cabs are certainly not the best for all situations (been there). The bass and its setup, the player's technique, the sensitivity of the other players may all be factors. Some basses just simply aren't that loud in certain kinds of ensemble situations. Make sure (when possible) that you play as close to the end of the fingerboard as you can. And yes perhaps you do need to find some other people to play with.

[mrpc]

[quote=damonsmith

* Make sure all your power is coming from your shoulders in both hands.
don't squeeze with the left hand, pull the strings down with the left arm.
For the right use your whole arm until the tempo is too fast.
Don't use the two finger technique until you have to, even then pump your arm in a kind of flapping motion. With luck it will accent the two and four!

* Remember that the underwood and fishman both function as bridge mutes. They kill a lot of the acoustic sound. I would look into other options. I use an old polytone and it works great.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you here, just wondering if your Polytone is the old brass style that fits on the inside of both bridge legs. That's one heavy mother.

IMO, alot of drummers do play louder than is called for. It's really easy for them to do this, and depending on the mood, they may just bash the crap out of the drum. sometimes they are cluless in this regard. Because they are listening from BEHIND the kit, isolated from whats happening on the tother parts of the performance area. Monitors make this problem worse. Often the overtones of the kit will cancel the freqs needed for the acoustic bass to be heard onstage.

Ask the drimmer how he tunes his kit, this is a good way to open dia log on the "problem".

[Karl]

high action is not the only way of achieving high volume. The trick is speed, so at least for me this changed my world, knowing that i can put a lot more energy by just moving the fingers of my right hand really quick instead of having a strong movement.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by mrpc

I'm with you here, just wondering if your Polytone is the old brass style that fits on the inside of both bridge legs. That's one heavy mother.

- That is the one! I got it off ebay. My initial idea was that if people were going to play so loud that I needed an amp I would just have fun sounding like a '70s free jazz record with that twanky weird sound the early ampified basses had. I found it actually works great with modern amps and has nice, clear, warm sound. I also comes off the bass easy, so that is a big plus since I don't amplify much.
I used to play with a drummer who owned an old polytone amp, half the time he took the play quiet option, half the time he brought me the amp,
The two together gave that '70s sound.
I had fun with it.

[mrpc]

Getting off subject but... there is an old David Friesen album "Star Dance" on Inner City that features a photo of David staring through his polytone mounted bass bridge. Boy is that thing ugly! And the drummer on the album is Steve Gadd, who bashed the crap out if the kit quite well on the session. Yeah that pickup is a real jouster.