Upright Volume

[RTB72]

Lots of good info here...

Another thing to consider, especially with a downfiring amp,
is that you may be pushing the drummer to play louder.....sometimes lower frequencies spread out and aren't correctly represented when standing next to the amp.
I've found focusing on what I know is the best physical way to get sound out of the bass "acoustically" and forgetting about the amplified sound can draw the drummer into your world......volume,dynamics et.al

good luck

RTB

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by RTB72

Lots of good info here...

Another thing to consider, especially with a downfiring amp,
is that you may be pushing the drummer to play louder.....sometimes lower frequencies spread out and aren't correctly represented when standing next to the amp.
I've found focusing on what I know is the best physical way to get sound out of the bass "acoustically" and forgetting about the amplified sound can draw the drummer into your world......volume,dynamics et.al

good luck

RTB

Good point. It is true that the mere sight of a bass amp can make a drummer stop listening...

[Ed Fuqua]

I don't really have a good idea from your profile how long you've been playing upright or what your background is. And, as RTB72 points out, playing upright through an amp is a GIGO situation. Or, as Rufus Reid so eloquently puts it, if you get a weak, unfocused, thin sound out of the bass acoustically; when you amplify it you get a louder weak, unfocused, thin sound. You say "The bass seems to play loud enough unplugged when I'm alone", but you don't talk at all about playing with other musicians unamplified.

Getting a big, warm, projecting sound acoustically out of the bass itself isn't really a matter of playing harder, it's more about playing smarter. As BASSDOGEMER says, where you place your pizz hand is a factor, so is using your forearm, upper arm and shoulder muscles. And left hand plays a much bigger role in sound production than one might think; if you're really hearing the notes and line that you're wanting to play as distinct pitches, it's easy to line up the left and right hand. Your "expectation of pitch" gives you confidence, whereas playing shapes or notes that "are supposed to work" over certain chords without having your ear in the equation can give a psychological "hesitance" about sounding notes. That imprecision of hearing exactly what note you want to play translates in an imprcision of left hand placement AND right hand attack. And that can kill any chance at projecting that note out front.

I've put in a LOT of work on getting a big, warm and projecting sound with my teacher. It's easier to do when you've got somebody outside looking at your physical approach and coordinating that work with ear training and improvisational concept etc. Muddling through on my own is what got me close to tendonitis or repetitive stress syndrome. Cause I was playing harder, not smarter.


But you gotta start somewhere. Doing sessions without an amp, doing duo and some trio gigs without an amp (depending of course on venue), doing gigs using a mic through a house system (or the PA the singer brings) just to get used to the sound of the bass and learniong what you need to do to get the sound out of the bass, not the amp.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Get a new Drummer, or do without them altogether. Seriously.

You seen my signature, right?

But I been there, living in East Bum**** where your choice is the guy that swings but rushes or the guy with good time but couldn't swing form the end of a rope. Or the guy that plays bebop on a deep creative level, but doesn't play anything written after 1962. Or that can play the **** out of anything he's heard before (cause he's basically just playing a version of what he heard somebody else do), but can't play anything original or "out of the ordinary". Charlotte's got a nice little scene, but it ain't like NYC or LA. I've got more bass players living in my neighborhood that there are in Charlotte (much less Ft. Mills SC), I imagine it's the same scene with drummers. Now LOEBASS may be able to put together his own scene with sopranino sax and dousson'gouni and the drummers can go **** themselves. But, ESPECIALLY, if he's trying to get hooked into the scene and trying to get deeper into playing straight ahead jazz, to blow off playing with the drummers on the scene (or more likely DRUMMER) is NOT a Good Idea. And one thing we ALL have to deal with is maintaining our own sound and identity (as much as we can) in even the most adverse of circumstance. Sure, talk with the cat. Get together and play through tunes with the cat, walk time, play melodies. Talk about concept, talk about what he want/ what you want. It ain't always about being in total agreement, there's a LOT to be said for exploring the differences in approach.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And left hand plays a much bigger role in sound production than one might think; if you're really hearing the notes and line that you're wanting to play as distinct pitches, it's easy to line up the left and right hand. Your "expectation of pitch" gives you confidence, whereas playing shapes or notes that "are supposed to work" over certain chords without having your ear in the equation can give a psychological "hesitance" about sounding notes. That imprecision of hearing exactly what note you want to play translates in an imprcision of left hand placement AND right hand attack. And that can kill any chance at projecting that note out front.

Oh...that's great stuff. I needed that. That's exactly what happens to me when I start falling on my face on the gig.

When I'm not sure of what I'm doing on a tune I loose the sense of where I'm going and what I'm trying to say. I start pulling my punches, the volume goes down, the bottom drops out and I start playing out of tune. I try to accomodate by playing patterns or riffs...and I'm sunk. Keep it up to long and the ensemble starts to come apart. To many tunes in a row and the room empties.

When I know the tune somewhere in my DNA I play exactly what I mean. I do it without question and everyone on the bandstand relaxes. I sound big and round and in tune. Keep it up all night and I can get people dancing.

Thanks, I needed to get to that.

[Ed Fuqua]

On that note, I was playing a gig last night at a little joint in my neighborhood; guitar trio w/Jim Hirschman and Eric Halvorson. And I'm having a great time, but you always wonder. My girlfriend stopped by to grab a bite and, since she was sitting about halfway down the room from the side of the bass (not the front) I asked her of she could hear everything OK and she said yeah, everything was clear.

But you always wonder. Nate Peck stopped by from his gig during the break before the last set and stayed to play a couple of tunes. I got a chance to walk around the joint and sure enough, you could hear everything from anywhere in the room.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Get a new Drummer, or do without them altogether. Seriously.

Was it Chet Baker who said, "It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer?"

I should credit Ed with this reference, but I really did have it somewhere in my brain. I just now saw it above.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I've played trio gigs with my plywood Christopher, Underwood and SWR WM10 and had power to spare with a drummer. Now, The Christopher isn't a very loud bass and can't compete with my Hawkes in the volume department. I'm guessing that an Eastman isn't any quieter.

I've played a friend's not overly loud bass, Underwood and Contra amp in a medium sized club with a drummer. The amp sat on the carpeted stage and tone and volume were perfect.

I would practice just playing as loudly as possible. Try to get all you can out of the bass and then amplify. My experience has been that it's sometimes easier,lazier for me, to just turn up the volume rather than get more from the bass.

Nobody can say for sure without hearing you live, but I doubt it's an equipment issue.

[Mike Crumpton]

I'm a little late to this party but there is one thing that can really screw me up - a splashy washy cymbal sound that somehow creates a lot of white noise that masks the sound of the bass that I hear - not necesarily what others do. I've notice that a lot of top drummers use a fairly cutting ride often, but when you're in the drum shop the cymbal that sounds the best ain't the one that makes for a comfortable life on a gig.

Just my 2p - and no-one has to agree - hell I'm a poet :-)

[carved czech]

If the drummer plays loud, I stay (move a bit) away from him on the stage. That makes him listen to me almost in every case . I never stay too far nor too close to my amp. Really good drummers can play in the way I am heard. I am talking about the way they are playing , not only about their volume...CC

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Mike Crumpton

I'm a little late to this party but there is one thing that can really screw me up - a splashy washy cymbal sound that somehow creates a lot of white noise that masks the sound of the bass that I hear - not necesarily what others do. I've notice that a lot of top drummers use a fairly cutting ride often, but when you're in the drum shop the cymbal that sounds the best ain't the one that makes for a comfortable life on a gig.

Just my 2p - and no-one has to agree - hell I'm a poet :-)

I think it has more to do with touch and pitch of the cymbals. I actually prefer the sound of cymbals with a bit more tone but less ping. I've done a number of gigs with a great Chicago drummer Robert Shy. He sometimes uses a 22" Constantinople ride. His other cymbal is sometimes a flat ride with rivets. Tons of tone. The 22" sounds like a jet taking off when he lays into it. It also has a fair amount of 'wash' but his touch is amazing so he also gets great definition.

I think it can also be a factor of how much is played. Cymbals with a bunch of tone can get annoying with a drummer that does not know how to control them.

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by fingers

I think it has more to do with touch and pitch of the cymbals. I actually prefer the sound of cymbals with a bit more tone but less ping. I've done a number of gigs with a great Chicago drummer Robert Shy. He sometimes uses a 22" Constantinople ride. His other cymbal is sometimes a flat ride with rivets. Tons of tone. The 22" sounds like a jet taking off when he lays into it. It also has a fair amount of 'wash' but his touch is amazing so he also gets great definition.

Yeah, I agree. A really nice ride cymbal (played by the right drummer) can put out a great roar without getting 'splashy' - which I also find hard to deal with. But I like the 'wash' - at fast tempos, it sort of turns into a drone with harmonic content, which I think sounds really rich in the right context.

I always thought it was interesting that one of my favourite drummers, Mick Harris (no, seriously) moved into drone-based electronic music: after all, a drone is just a really, really fast beat.

FWIW, I love playing with loud bands and loud drummers (in the right context) - I just work with those gigs on their own terms: you accept that you're playing more of a pulse, colour, and a timekeeping thing and that the audience is hearing the sum of the parts. That's essentially what playing in an orchestra is like. I've played the last page of the Dvorak 'New World,' which is all open E, with my ear against the neck, trying to make sure I'm putting some sound out 'cause I can't hear myself at all: it's like - oh yeah, I am playing loud. OK, relax.

Lots of good advice in this thread. I'd say to the OP, definitely work on acoustic sound, and then do whatever you need to do to hear yourself in the band - my gut feeling is the mix in the audience will then sort itself out.

[Marc Piane]

I find the pitch of the bass drum to be the biggest factor. The bass drum and DB often need to be able to create a unfied sound. A drummer I play with gets pretty loud but he has small drums tuned high.

I prefer 18" or even 16" bass drums. If the drums are tuned low and muddy the drummer doesn't have to get very loud to make it a long night for you.

I believe that everything needs to occupy a space frequency-wise.

If a drummer walks in with anything bigger than a 20" bass drums I put my head in my hands a hope that if I pinch myself hard enough I will wake up from that nightmare.

Same thing with a piano player with a busy left hand.

I have found though that guys who are real serious about their musical vibe (ie team players) understand how to work together. The problem arises when it become the 'me show'.