Vivaldi #3

[droo]

I've just started looking at Vivaldi #3 in A minor - I'm mostly a pizz guy but have recently taken up the bow to improve intonation and become a bit more of an all-rounder.

My question regards the dotted-quaver/semiquaver runs in the first movement - in my transcription each pair is slurred with a legato on the semiquaver.
Should the bow stop slightly between the dotted-quaver and the semiquaver? - there is usually a position shift involved here and it sounds messy if I try and slur it in one smooth bow.

Sorry if this is a no-brainer to most of you.
I do have a lesson with a real teacher occasionally, I'm supposed to work on this ready for next time and I don't want to waste practice time because I got the wrong end of the stick (no pun intended).

[Snakewood]

The quaver/semi quaver are hooked. In baroque music make sure to overdot the dotted notes. The sixteenth need to be very short. Also, there shouldn't be too long of a pause/gap between these figurations. For the first movement, play it no slower than quarter note = 60. It can really begin to drag and sound boring.

[jallenbass]

Find a recording of the piece. That should answer most of your questions.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by droo

Should the bow stop slightly between the dotted-quaver and the semiquaver? - there is usually a position shift involved here and it sounds messy if I try and slur it in one smooth bow.

Like Snakewood says, it's a hooked bow...meaning that when you've got slurs and a line over the notes, you keep the bow going in the same direction for the dotted 8th/16th pair. You stop the bow between the notes, though, to give them distinction.

Basically, the sound should approximate the same sound you would have if you did all the notes with opposite bows...yeah I know kinda strange to write slurs for something that isn't really slurred welcome to classical string code...but the advantage to the hooked bow is that you use it more efficiently (you don't run out of bow).

You don't ever want to run out of bow...

edit: oh wait a sec you don't have the bar over both just the 16th I don't know what they're trying to say now, maybe it means to not cut the 16ths short after all

[droo]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

edit: oh wait a sec you don't have the bar over both just the 16th I don't know what they're trying to say now, maybe it means to not cut the 16ths short after all

Maybe it's just to stop people playing that 16th staccato?

[droo]

Listening to a cello recording of it... there does seem to be a space between them - sometimes it sounds like the soloist is playing the dotted 8ths with a > over them...
I must admit it was the fact that one of the notes was marked legato and the other wasn't that confused me. I could cope with both or nothing if there was a slur...

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by droo

Maybe it's just to stop people playing that 16th staccato?

Maybe, but ultimately I'm inclined to agree with Snakewood it's a hooked bow...it makes too much sense

I infer that Snakewood has played this too from his advice about boring and dragging LOL

[Hector Wolff]

I was tought to play it as a "hooked" bow, two notes bowed in the same direction.

When you articulate the two separate notes with the bow moving in the same direction (in other words without a bow change) , the articulation comes out more subtle, not slurred, but not as distinctly articulated as with a up/down bow change.

[BassZen]

I disagree with the "hooked bow" idea. The way I play it, (and have been taught) is that there is a slight separation of the two notes, but this is done by a slight accent on the sixteenth note, though without ever actually stopping the bow. At the same time, the legato marking seems to actually mean that the note is shorter than it would be if unmarked and is meant more as an accent than has a note value marking.

[Sumguy7787]

What does the __ mean under notes and the _ mean over
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I apologize for crude drawings.

[Snakewood]

Originally Posted by Sumguy7787

What does the __ mean under notes and the _ mean over
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I apologize for crude drawings.

I agree. It's important to follow the music. But...We must be careful since the bass transcription is definetly not a direct copy from the original cello manuscripts, so whether it was ACTUALLY mean't to be played hooked is arguable. It is printed as hooked, but it's really a matter of taste.

[sibass89]

The dotted 8ths to 16ths should hooked and double dotted to sound baroque style. Also the 16ths should lead into the next 8th note so plan your shifts so that the 16th and the following 8th note are in the same position. Also the line on the note is simply implying that it should be legato into the next note. The legato line does not mean not to articulate.

[curious_george]

I agree, the dotted-eighth sixteenth rhythm must be hooked. Atleast thats the way i learned and everyone else i know.