walking over one chord?

narcopolo · #1 07-01-2009, 09:57 PM

so in my studying for walking over changes, i'm getting pretty confident and comfortable. however, i'm working on a tune with a section that stays on the I chord for like eight or sixteen bars. everything i've learned about walking involves pulling the music to the next destination (chord) and creating strong resolutions. it's tough for me come up with anything interesting while not advancing to a new destination. kind of like running in place.any thoughts/suggestions/listening ideas?
thanks!

J. Crawford · #2 07-01-2009, 10:00 PM

One of my favorite bass quotes of all time, but I think Mikebass, another TB member:

Quote:

When in doubt, under play!

Just do some simple, groovin, root notes, octaves, and throw some other notes in their. Keep it simple. And if this happens, its usually a solo. If not, forget this advice:

Pedal the note. Start pedaling, and decrease volume. Then for the last 4 bars, start bringing the volume back up. Victor Wooten said it works everytime, gives the soloist a feeling of comfort, and sucks the crowd right in.

mtto · #3 07-01-2009, 10:11 PM

Check out Paul Chambers on "So What" from Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue". Also Jimmy Garrison on John Coltrane's "Impressions" from the album of the same name. Just two "chords" (or modes) Dm to Eb min and back to Dm. They keep coming up with ideas, chorus after chorus.

Steal liberally.

Stereo Joe · #4 07-01-2009, 10:18 PM

You can imply other chords from the same key to add some variety to your lines. For instance, mtto mentioned 'So What' which stays on a Dm7 chord for 16 bars. You can treat the Dm7 chord as the 'ii' chord in a key and instead of just playing D Dorian for the whole time, you can outline other chords from the same key: G7, Am7, etc... you can create tension by arpeggiating these chords or highlighting their chord tones and then you can release the tension by 'resolving' back to the Dm7 chord tones as focal points.

This works for me!

Jazzdogg · #5 07-01-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narcopolo

so in my studying for walking over changes, i'm getting pretty confident and comfortable. however, i'm working on a tune with a section that stays on the I chord for like eight or sixteen bars. everything i've learned about walking involves pulling the music to the next destination (chord) and creating strong resolutions. it's tough for me come up with anything interesting while not advancing to a new destination. kind of like running in place.any thoughts/suggestions/listening ideas?
thanks!

This is fairly common when accompanying someone who wants to add a solo or vamp on an outro instead of ending a song. I think it's more interesting to create a musical figure-eight track than it is to merely go in circles. Variations on IV-II-V-I or an ostinato pattern can often provide a starting point for further exploration.

narcopolo · #6 07-01-2009, 10:20 PM

awesome stuff! if i get to the point where i can steal from paul chambers in a competent fashion, i'll be pretty stoked!

J. Crawford · #7 07-01-2009, 10:21 PM

Oh lawdy, lawdy. I didnt know this was a DB thread.. my advice still stands, even though its in an electric bass fashion!

narcopolo · #8 07-01-2009, 10:33 PM

nah it was great advice! i'm actually playing the song on my jazzbass, but i figured the jazz cats would have the best suggestions for walking.

Eric Swanson · #9 07-02-2009, 09:27 AM

Its not that the listener needs to be told where the progression is the whole time the tune is hanging out. Two time-tested approaches are to do some sort of pattern playing, with some variation and/or embellishment, or some sort of melodic or harmonic line, with or without motivic development.

In addition to countless jazz examples of creating interest in slow-moving progressions, I like to listen to Bach, especially the 'cello suites or violin sonatas and partitas. I am always amazed by how much musical motion is happening, within a steady rhythmic continuum (continuous eighth, quarter, or sixteenth notes), created only by moving and developing motives within the tonality of the pieces.

Bentonrii · #10 07-02-2009, 09:34 AM

there is a "So What" trancription in Bass Player a couple of months ago.

ZonGuy · #11 07-02-2009, 11:59 AM

Note that Paul walks (almost) chromatically down Dm on the first couple of choruses - another idea.

Kimpini · #12 07-05-2009, 11:23 PM

Subscribed

Megalomania · #13 07-06-2009, 09:19 PM

If you notice chamber's walking lines from so what, he plays a modal line that repeats every 5 bars. The line flows beautifully while keeping the listener on edge by cycling in a different place then the usual phrasing. He makes a good use of pedal points also.

mtto · #14 07-07-2009, 03:58 PM

The most common pedal is the 5th (A in Dm) but all of the notes in the mode can be used as pedals, depending on what the rest of the band is playing, and your intention. Each pedal point creates a different vibe.

If you want to take things "out", the notes not in the mode can be used as well. Be careful not to get lost or loose your bandmates - if you are playing So What, for example, the notes not in D dorian (Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb, Db) will tend to imply you are on the B section in Eb. But a Db/C# pedal at the end of the form can create nice tension and lead back into the top of the form nicely.

On So What, the notes F and C are shared by both modes, making them cool pedal points if you want to "cloud" the 8 bar phrases.

standupbassman · #15 07-10-2009, 11:28 PM

listen to the soloist and start to counter what they do, i.e. if they start to play higher than you play lower and vis-versa

Square Bear · #16 07-11-2009, 01:22 AM

all great advice. i don't play a ton of jazz but i'll say that one thing that i notice that gets overlooked all too often is that it's often not what notes you play, it's when you play them. too much focus on chord=mode kind of thinking can really make things bland. you can honestly play any note on a weak beat or a weak part of a beat so long as the resolution makes sense. hell, you can play any note on a strong beat so long as you own it and the resolution makes sense. i would start simple and maybe play a mode in ascending or descending thirds, something like that, and as you near a formal marking point get a little more outside, like a 4th beat Eb resolving to a big downbeat on D (if you're in D). play pedals when energy is building. resolve at the obvious breaking point. listen to everyone else and find the idea that matches the energy. have fun and don't worry! if you work out some ideas so that you can be confident you can just rely on your instinct and you'll be right every time!

Treyzer · #17 07-11-2009, 12:26 PM

Lots of great advice. I would just like to add that every situation is different and if you're actually listening and playing with the cats your on the stand with.......Musical moments will present themselves. Sometimes it will be messing with the time, sometimes it will be playing outside or inside, sometimes it will just be some ostinato pattern. It really depends on what the musical conversation offers you and what you decide to contribute.

Clay_Bass · #18 07-11-2009, 01:10 PM

check out Doug's walking on So What. Super clear lines and you can check the occasional fingerings etc with the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EV3SJU8IkM

chancletarock · #19 07-11-2009, 02:01 PM

my advice would be to be aware which are the "money notes" in the change that you're on - to me these are the notes that, when you land them on a strong beat, will help define the chord - assuming that you want to fulfill this role as a bassplayer, of course :P - in my mind, i think of them in order of importance: 1, 5, 3, 7. Yes improv theory tells us that the 3,7, and upward extensions define the chord, but the root and fifth are like the floor of the house and you have to be willing to lay 'em down if you want to convey the harmonies in the ink. when i play that sort of thing, i think of how to make a beautiful line with those notes. this is still a work in progress for me and i think it always will be.

i agree with knowing the related modes of the chord you're in - but keep in mind what you're implying with certain notes. seeing a Dm7 and walking a G7 is staying in the mode and a valuable thing to understand in its own right, but because you're the bass you ultimately control the clarity of the harmony and can really muddle it up. for example, you wouldn't play an Am7 over a G7, right? it wouldn't sound like a dominant anymore. they're devices to keep in mind, but if you only play these sort of harmonic ornaments, you're no longer conveying the harmony clearly. to do this well i think it's necessary (from my own experience) to learn the tendencies and natures of each note in each scale - where they want to go, etc. then it becomes clear that, in slow harmonic rhythms, the bassplayer really does control the harmony. you can hear how true this is by playing the Dm chord in question here with your right hand on a piano, and then playing every note of the chord under it, or playing arpeggios. There are different ranges of clarity with relation to the quality of the chord that you hear like this. hearing this effect really helped me a lot, and is something i have to remember when i play.

this is all a matter of taste, of course - but i think a lot of people get taught the "what scale are you in" method and never go past that, which leads to a lot of nebulous-sounding harmony behind peoples' solos.

good luck! i'm workin' on it too.

oh yeah and +1 to listening to chambers doing it.

mtto · #20 07-14-2009, 04:23 PM

One thing that I work on is imitative counterpoint. This is much easier if you have one chord for 8 or 16 bars. Listen for the soloist to play a pattern, melody or riff, then play it back to them, only in quarter notes. As mentioned above, Bach is a good source for inspiration, although his music tends to go through a lot of chord changes. You can also play the soloist's pattern back to them backwards or upside down.

Patterns and sequences are quite useful and musical in 8 to 16 of one chord, even if not imitating the soloist.

As far as spelling out the harmony clearly and simply, in my experience, the longer the chord sits there, the less this is important. Beat one, bar one of a change you should almost always play the root. Each successive bar of the same chord, it is less and less important to play the root on the downbeat. It is a safe thing to play the root on the downbeat every 8 bars, or 4 bars.

The D minor in "So What" is not the same as the Dm in a ii V I in C major, functionally speaking. Modal D minor is more like a D minor 13 chord: the whole scale is available as chord extensions. Although the D, F, A and C are more "important", functionally to the sound of the chord, if you only play these notes for 16 bars you will miss out on some pretty melodic notes. The example of playing an Am7 over a G7: if it is a funky, modal G7 that just sits there with no intention of resolving to a C chord, then if you hear Am7, go ahead. (I prefer A7 over G7

) Not all G7s are the same, even though they have the same four notes. If a song has 16 bars of one chord, a little nebulous harmony can be important.

My walking bass philosophy is to solo in quarter notes, with mostly roots when the chord changes. I think I got that expression from a Brian Bromberg interview. A walking bass is a melodic line, not just a harmonic line.