when to move on in a lesson

[Attenergy]

My Good People of The Double Bass Forum ... I have two questions:
1) I am studying out of the Simandl Book ... when do you know that you can move on to the next lesson?!
2) How exact of a spot are the note on the fingerboard. Sometimes I am not exactly in the "spot" but it sounds consistent and the chromatic tuner is saying I am a "little' (one light off) flat or sharp but it sounds the same to me. Is there any leadway here?!?!


Please help!!!

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

My Good People of The Double Bass Forum ... I have two questions:
1) I am studying out of the Simandl Book ... when do you know that you can move on to the next lesson?!
2) How exact of a spot are the note on the fingerboard. Sometimes I am not exactly in the "spot" but it sounds consistent and the chromatic tuner is saying I am a "little' (one light off) flat or sharp but it sounds the same to me. Is there any leadway here?!?!


Please help!!!

1) when the teacher sez.
2) it's exact, there's no leeway.

[Attenergy]

hmmm ... I was afraid of that. Also ... should the NS be set up on a slant or straight up and down?!?!?!

[Hector Wolff]

The position of the notes is certainly exact, but what you are experiencing is comon.

When I was taking lessons, working on Simandle, I would practice alone at home and get to a point where I was satisfied. Then I would take my lesson and my teacher would double the part on the piano. Well, you learn real fast the difference between sounding OK and really being right on.

You can play by yourself and your intonation may well sound OK, to you and your audience - you may even be able play with a small ensemble of different instruments and still sound acceptable, but then try to play with a whole section of good bassists in an orchestra.

So what I am saying is that it is easy to fool yourself into thinking your intonation is good and that the little variations in hand and finger posititons don't really matter. But it is a constant process of refining and trying to be ever more sensitive to what you are producing, and always checking your notes against open strings and harmonics.

You really can get quite precise and consistent, with time and hard work.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by Hector Wolff

When I was taking lessons, working on Simandle, I would practice alone at home and get to a point where I was satisfied. Then I would take my lesson and my teacher would double the part on the piano. Well, you learn real fast the difference between sounding OK and really being right on.

This is because your ears are much better tuners than some lights. OP, you should try to get away from staring down a tuner and try to let your ears do the work. Playing with a drone (on tonic) can help with this.

[Attenergy]

I was afraid of these answers but I expected them and I thank you guys from staring me away from the short cuts ... Well ... back to the woodshed

[jlilley]

If you have access to a piano or keyboard, I've found it helpful to play and record exercises I'm working on at the piano (with a metronome) and then go back and play it on the bass. Great way to check your intonation and work on you time.
John

[jfv]

The bass is not the piano, it doesnt have to use tempered
tuning. Go google 'just intonation', this is why sometimes
the position of the note that 'sounds' correct and the
tuner will not be the same thing.

Of course it all depends on the circumstances, being in
tune meaning doing the right thing.

Cheers,

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

hmmm ... I was afraid of that. Also ... should the NS be set up on a slant or straight up and down?!?!?!

There is a separate forum for EUBs and you are more likely to get an answer there.

I think intonation is a big problem on NS EUBs and now I actually find it easier on DB!

So it is easy to get into the habit of just following the dots - but I have found when doing this and playing with piano/guitar that unison lines (parts) sound "out" - whereas on DB I am trusting to my ears more and this works better.

The usual answer to most questions round here is "get a teacher" - but most DB teachers have no experience of "stick"-like EUBs and the problems related to them - and to be honest - why should they! ?

[damonsmith]

Those NS basses play like DBs, so I have had no problem with students who play them even before I got my EUB.
You don't so much "move on" as add another exercise when you feel comfortable with the one you are on. I still work on all the Simandl exercises even the first F major one, they can always get better. You add a new one and then regularly check in on all the others.
I put my Ergo, which is like an NS at a slight angle.

[Mingus]

My teacher discourages my usage of a tuner, instead, I should be able to figure myself out from my previous position. If I had my 4th finger on C in H.P. then moving my first finger there would give me the II position. There is no guessing to be involved, and after a good while of you finding your way around mechanically, it'll start to come, or so my teacher says...I'm still working on it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Those NS basses play like DBs... .

I have an an NSCR5 and a real DB and find they play completely differently!

So - there is no need for thumb position above the octave as there is no body to get in the way - however there are no physical cues or clues to position, as there is no body!

The main thing for me is that the action on the NS basses feels much lower and closer to the fingerboard - so where on my DB I like to pull through the strings and get under them - this is impossible on the NSCR5.

So I find the NS bass can often get a better sound with two fingers at right angles rather than being parallel, as I would on the DB.

I could go on to list more and more differences that I have found - but you get the idea!

[Attenergy]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Those NS basses play like DBs, so I have had no problem with students who play them even before I got my EUB.
You don't so much "move on" as add another exercise when you feel comfortable with the one you are on. I still work on all the Simandl exercises even the first F major one, they can always get better. You add a new one and then regularly check in on all the others.
I put my Ergo, which is like an NS at a slight angle.

Thanks Damon ... you are the BEST!!!

[Attenergy]

Originally Posted by Mingus

My teacher discourages my usage of a tuner, instead, I should be able to figure myself out from my previous position. If I had my 4th finger on C in H.P. then moving my first finger there would give me the II position. There is no guessing to be involved, and after a good while of you finding your way around mechanically, it'll start to come, or so my teacher says...I'm still working on it.

I would like for you to explain this more ... I got really confused this weekend (before I read this). The Simandl has HP, I, II, III, IV etc ... when I was using the book My First Simandl it changed the position structure and I wound up practicing for a few minutes in the wrong positon wondering why things just did not sound right. I also pick up a book this weekend, something about intonation, that was reccomended in the forum and it had yet another different position system. Needless to say I was dazed and after much frustration decided to use the Simandl Book exclusively. It seems to be the more succint and linear book. I feel I am getting good sound out of it (although I am waiting to take it to David Gages to put my new strings on). Scales are sounding symmetrical and I am finding my positions. I think I have the advantage because I NEVER played an upright. Anyway, what is the right fingering that will save me the most headache going forward ... thanks in advance

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Ben Rolston

Playing with a drone (on tonic) can help with this.

+1 on using a drone. You'll be able to hear when you're off. And presently you won't be off as often.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I have an an NSCR5 and a real DB and find they play completely differently!

So - there is no need for thumb position above the octave as there is no body to get in the way - however there are no physical cues or clues to position, as there is no body!

The main thing for me is that the action on the NS basses feels much lower and closer to the fingerboard - so where on my DB I like to pull through the strings and get under them - this is impossible on the NSCR5.

So I find the NS bass can often get a better sound with two fingers at right angles rather than being parallel, as I would on the DB.

I could go on to list more and more differences that I have found - but you get the idea!

Besides the body, those are just differences one bass could have with any other. In principle, as far as how you learn them they work the same. Thumb Pos. is still best in the upper octave, etc.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Totally Different!

[Mingus]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

I would like for you to explain this more ... I got really confused this weekend (before I read this). The Simandl has HP, I, II, III, IV etc ... when I was using the book My First Simandl it changed the position structure and I wound up practicing for a few minutes in the wrong positon wondering why things just did not sound right. I also pick up a book this weekend, something about intonation, that was reccomended in the forum and it had yet another different position system. Needless to say I was dazed and after much frustration decided to use the Simandl Book exclusively. It seems to be the more succint and linear book. I feel I am getting good sound out of it (although I am waiting to take it to David Gages to put my new strings on). Scales are sounding symmetrical and I am finding my positions. I think I have the advantage because I NEVER played an upright. Anyway, what is the right fingering that will save me the most headache going forward ... thanks in advance

My teacher wants me to go around mechanically, so that there is no guessing. If I do go around the fingerboard mechanically, what I want should be right there and on the II, III and IV positions you can always check against an open string to make sure. When I said mechanically I meant by going around not by sound but by sheer logic. If my Pinkie was on C in Half Position (Bb, B, and C on the A string) then if I move to the II position my index finger is supposed to be on C now, leaving my 2nd and 4th finger for Db and D on the A string, respectively. with my Pinkie on D, I can check to make sure that I am correct by playing it against the open string.