Who Keeps Time? Bassist or Drummer?

[Phil Rowan]

A friend of mine relayed this to me, told to him by the great John Riley. John said to think of the bassist and drummer as having the same roles at different times. Think of the bassist as a little baby inside a burning house, and the drummer as the fireman that goes in to save him...and vice versa. In other words, if things get hairy on someone's part, the other has to be supportive and get the hairy-fied one back on his feet. So if you think about it, like several people said before, everyone has to be strong rhythmically and harmonically, resolving certain rhthyms and harmonies at the right time, knowing exactly where you are at all times.

I spoke to Angelica Sanchez at one of here trio gigs (with Tony Malaby and Tom Rainey), and she told me that when they play, she's really listening more to the other guys than herself. It's something she said takes a while to get to, but I feel like that's a really important thing..to step back and remove yourself, and listen to the group as a whole, listening more to those around you than to yourself. It's not easy to do but I think it's one of the most important things about playing. I feel like the best musicians spend most of their energy focusing on listening than they do on playing. Just my 2 cents.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I was lucky enough to get to play a set with John a couple of summers ago. Listening back to the recording, I felt that I relied on him too much, which made the groove just kind of stay flat. If/when I get the opportunity to do it again, I'm definitely ready for some more give and take this time. Live and learn!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

I feel like the best musicians spend most of their energy focusing on listening than they do on playing. Just my 2 cents.

Your two cents is worth a million dollars. That's not just an opinion, that is cold hard fact.

[bigtexashonk]

In King Crimson, Bill Bruford lets Adrian Belew keep time.

[Ed Fuqua]

Hey, Phil. Do we know each other? Where at in Brooklyn?

The John/Angela quotes are great; my buddy Eric was doing a tour that had Tony Scher on bass subbing for the regular bassist, so he was talking with Tony asking him what he wanted, how he wanted Eric to play. And Tony said "Just play what you want to play." And that in order for him (Tony) to really PLAY the music and to try to get to a moment in the music, he needed Eric to playing like that too. Not trying to second guess what Tony wanted or try to "hook up" or keep it on a certain agenda. Just play, listen to how everybody else is "just playing".

[Phil Smith]

I think if you spend most of your time listening to just yourself, your not present and when you're not present there's a lot that you're not going to bring to the collective sound.

As far as time goes, I think everyone is responsible for keeping their own time and pulse and the collective time and pulse of the ensemble.

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Hey, Phil. Do we know each other? Where at in Brooklyn?

The John/Angela quotes are great; my buddy Eric was doing a tour that had Tony Scher on bass subbing for the regular bassist, so he was talking with Tony asking him what he wanted, how he wanted Eric to play. And Tony said "Just play what you want to play." And that in order for him (Tony) to really PLAY the music and to try to get to a moment in the music, he needed Eric to playing like that too. Not trying to second guess what Tony wanted or try to "hook up" or keep it on a certain agenda. Just play, listen to how everybody else is "just playing".

Ed,
I don't think we know eachother. I'm off the L train.

I think the Tony quote is really great. I think too often musicians can get caught up in the whole "is what I'm playing hip enough" syndrome, and they forget the importance of playing however it is you hear the music. Something Ralph Allessi really stressed when I met him was to use what you've got. In other words, don't make excuses like "i'm not warmed up", or "i haven't been practicing", and so on. Just work with what you have and milk it for all it's worth, and make the most music you can with it. Another important thing is to play only what you hear, and if you don't hear anything, don't play anything. That's a really tough one. I think a lot of people get uncomfortable with not playing, and laying out. Not playing is as big a musical decision as playing is, if that makes sense.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

Ed,
In other words, don't make excuses like "i'm not warmed up", or "i haven't been practicing", and so on.

Unfortunately, we have ALREADY changed the name of the Tuesday night group to THE TUESDAY NIGHT SELF DEPRECATION SOCIETY(TNSDS), it's too late to change back.

Originally Posted by FILL LESS

Not playing is as big a musical decision as playing is, if that makes sense.

As my teacher says; rests are notes, too.

Hey, you can get my e-mail address from my profile, put me on your GigSpam list.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

I've experienced times where musicians or singers have come in on the wrong beat and a mad scrambling occurs to get us all back together in a performance. Usually it's the member/singer who is unable to adjust or unwilling to adjust that everyone else falls back in sync with...and if it takes very long to find out who the most stubborn member is I pity that performance it's a miserable experience!

The DB player I've been having lessons with recently, leads his own Jazz groups that play his original compositions - so I saw him play with a quintet with 3 horns,drums and no chordal instrument.

So one tune started with a Latin 'tumbao' bass line - where the bass avoids the 1 and in this case, comes in on the 'and of 3' - the horn section then took the and of 3 as the one and carried on in this conviction throughout the tune - solos and all!!

They got similar (good!) applause to the rest of the set, though!!

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

They got similar (good!) applause to the rest of the set, though!!

You bet and good point!

[anonymous0726]

I think that a mature approach is to take on the task (of the groove) for yourself. In good situations there will be someone else in the band that you can consider your 'buddy', and between the two of you there is a kind of teamwork where your combined 'powers' are strong enough that you can drop your defensive posture a bit -- and this team can grow larger, of course. In the best of situations there is no need to feel like you're taking care of other players full time, and actually can feel a communal groove take place. In the best of the best, the crowd is there with you, too.

The buck stops in your own shoes, ultimately.

[FredH]

Who Keeps Time? Bassist or Drummer?

The club manager!!

They always seem to know when I'm late or take too long on break. Oh yea, and they do this strange, pointing at their watch then slashing their necks with imaginary knives in the early morning hours...

Yup, club managers are the true time keepers.

[Doug Ring]

SELF DEPRECATION SOCIETY

Wasn't that the theme tune for the movie The Italian Job?

[Mike Crumpton]

Yeah - they sing "Its A Self Preservation Society" just before the get-away coach is left hanging over a cliff edge, which kinda sums up what often goes wrong :-).

Don't ask me about the new movie though - I only know the old one with Michael Caine and Noel Coward in the days when Mini Coopers weren't built by Germans.

[Kneehimiah]

Originally Posted by FredH

The club manager!!

They always seem to know when I'm late or take too long on break. Oh yea, and they do this strange, pointing at their watch then slashing their necks with imaginary knives in the early morning hours...

Yup, club managers are the true time keepers.

The best answer I've seen yet, and the one I'm most guilty of.
Often with great pride...

Ramon
www.ramonpooser.com

[lhoward]

God, what a topic. I have to agree with ImAGoodDuck: ". . . . . a group sounds its full potential is when everyone is keeping time." After alotta years of playing, I'd say it has to be the primary effort. If the time is there, everything else will flow according to each player's ability/experience. Everyone has to be confident that the time will be where its supposed to be. Listening is the key. When everyone is listening and works on it, everyone has fun. And if you're not having fun, you're not doing it right.

I agree with the remark attributed to Andrew Rathburn.

On "when things fall apart" I think each group has to work out their own protocol. Most of the time, if the lead has come in wrong, he/she obviously doesn't realize it. My experience is that its usually easier for the rhythm section to fall in line so the performance doesn't suffer any additional problems. Again, its like "Have Ears, Will Listen".

[nypiano]

John Lewis’s explanation when responding to a classmate was that you rely/follow on the person with the strongest time (this is not voted upon..) regardless of the instrument. It’s just something that everybody in the band senses. I thought this was pretty practical advice from the master.

The practical reality of how to fix time-does not get helped by weak consensus. The reason why I say that, is that the possible imposition of another tempo from some well meaning but less tempo gifted players really screws around with what I call the “poetic meter”. It’s essentially saying a new reality upon the existing reality. Once you start changing that speed you start changing the meaning of everything that is being said. When you’re thinking about time you no longer are living the reality of the music you’re creating. It can be fixed, but from an extremist perspective it’s almost as musical to just stop playing.The ones that really I have to work on it are the ones who change the tempo subtlely from bar to bar. That’s rough. If someone is consistent (behind, ahead of the beat)you can measure where you want to be to balance their tendencies.

Getting back to the original question. Who is the time keeper—the bass or the drums. I think really is the question of which part is at the time mostly closely emulating the sound of the metronome at the time. And this can vary from each part of the tune. The easier and the more repetitive the part, the easier it is to keep time. One physical act can be easier to be consistent than another. One thing I find comical from drummers is—they can be all over the place but then start playing that doo-doo click thing with the rim-shot as if –they are saying “Ok, fellas let’s get it together!"When they were in fact responsible for the prior chaos—that now required this grounding.

It's all about an agreement. Until it's irreconcilable. Then listen for the strongest time. It might be you. Or it might be the horn player.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by nypiano

The ones that really I have to work on it are the ones who change the tempo subtlely from bar to bar. That’s rough.

And then I get "the look"...