Who's At Fault Here?

Kevin Hsieh · #1 10-28-2008, 04:02 PM

My best friend (drummer) and I play a lot together and spend a lot of time together discussing lots of things. One topic that comes up a lot is the idea of pulse and time as a rhythm section. We've been experimenting with the pushing and laying back since we started playing together (last year). Last year we were behind the beat (when he was on his Elvin kick) and this year we've developed a feel where he's pushing and I'm a little closer to the middle of the beat.

Last night, we sat in at Cleopatra's Needle. The trumpet player counted off Speak Low at a slower tempo than usual (around 130). Drummer friend decides that this tempo isn't happening and decides to start pushing it, eventually rushing the tempo. However, I remain adamant on maintaining the old tempo. The pianist goes with me and the horn players more or less lock in the drummer. This results in a feel less comfortable that what my friend and I are used to playing. It ended up being me way behind and him on his newly established time at around 150 bpm (a la Reggie Workman and Andrew Cyrille). He called me out on it after the session and we had a little fight/debate.

I always believed in the idea that holding the tempo and making it feel good is the focus of the group. Even if the tempo sucks, the rhythm section must do all they can to make it happen. Does the rhythm section really have such liberty as to decide that the trumpet player's tempo is no good and arbitrarily choose a new tempo?

Have at it, boys.

Nathan Parker · #2 10-28-2008, 04:06 PM

I think your first priority has to be making good music. In a situation like that, I would tend to just go with the flow of the drummer, if that's the way it seems to be going.

Sometimes, though, you gotta stick it to 'em, and let them know that you are aware of the tempo, and how they are screwing it up. Tough call, though.

iamthebassplayr · #3 10-28-2008, 04:07 PM

I also like to hold whatever tempo is established from the start, but when other people increase time purposefully, sometimes it is better to move with them than hold them back.

I think that if there was a passage in the song that had some accending lines, or something where tension was being built, then might have been a good time to push the tempo if it was needed.

I'm not sure if the trumpet player purposefully was doing the song slower, in which case a "heads up" was probably in order", or if it just happened, in which case, depending on how the crowd was reacting I would say, possibly push it...

I think I avoided actually answering well enough...

Kevin Hsieh · #4 10-28-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Parker

I think your first priority has to be making good music. In a situation like that, I would tend to just go with the flow of the drummer, if that's the way it seems to be going.

Sometimes, though, you gotta stick it to 'em, and let them know that you are aware of the tempo, and how they are screwing it up. Tough call, though.

I totally agree with the first statement. It's a tough situation in the sense that it's just a power struggle between me and my buddy. He sensed that it wouldn't work with the tempo that was called, so he purposely rushed it. I felt like it could actually work, but it definitely wasn't the most comfortable tempo to blow over Speak Low. S*** happens. We usually get along perfectly and sound great together.

Nathan Parker · #5 10-28-2008, 04:21 PM

It is a sticky situation, no doubt. I personally feel that it is our jobs to swing the s*** outta whatever is called, regardless of tempo, feel, all that (unless its a straight ahead tune, and even then, I might swing a little bit). It's tricky to do while holding the time. When I listen back to some of my favorite recordings, the time is usually a little bit ahead of where it was counted off, and I'm okay with that. It fits the moment.

But, if it's being pushed ahead unnaturally, I think you have to try and lay down the law to put a stop to that. And if that doesn't work, just do like Oscar Pettiford used to do, and slap the drummer around during a break.

Treyzer · #6 10-28-2008, 04:30 PM

If the trumpet player called the tune and then counted it off, you've got to assume he has some idea of how he wants the tune to lay.... It is not up to the drummer to then speed the tempo up becuase he somehow believes it's not happening. Who's it not happening for? The trumpet player wants to play it at a slower tempo. In my mind the drummer is showing a complete lack of respect and disregard for the soloist. Is the trumpet player an older cat who has been around for awhile? Does he know what he's doing? if the answers are yes, your friend should lay back a bit and try to make whatever tempo is called groove...

txstatebass · #7 10-28-2008, 04:32 PM

The stage isn't a good place to argue. Take him to the alley and beat him up there. Also, record EVERYTHING so you can point it out to him later. Tape don't lie.

Kevin Hsieh · #8 10-28-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txstatebass

The stage isn't a good place to argue. Take him to the alley and beat him up there. Also, record EVERYTHING so you can point it out to him later. Tape don't lie.

He admits he pushed it. He also claims that the horn players played better with him assuming the new tempo.

we didn't argue till after

hdiddy · #9 10-28-2008, 05:44 PM

I say it's his fault. Lead player didn't call for it and didn't budge when the drummer tried. It's up to everybody to respond to the people on stage with them and not expectations of what good players are "supposed" to do. Sounds very contrived.

kevteop · #10 10-28-2008, 05:59 PM

If you've got one of those drummers who actually knows what tempo he wants, rather than the standard drummer who slows down or speeds up without even realising it, then I suppose it's harder to know what to do. But if you're sitting in on someone else's gig and they count it off, it's pretty rude to ramp it up.

BTW if you have a fight about stuff like that it means you're in love, so I wouldn't worry about it, he'll forgive you.

Treyzer · #11 10-28-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

He also claims that the horn players played better with him assuming the new tempo.

Quite the egohead for someone I'm assuming is not that advanced in years!

As we say in the islands "da keed needs lickins!"

Paul Warburton · #12 10-28-2008, 06:12 PM

All pretty good answers Kevin.
I'm a bit concerned about your buddy and his somewhat dictatative attitude. Sounds like it might turn in to a power trip and you might be included in team that goes around town trying to change everyones ideas of the right tempi.

Treyzer · #13 10-28-2008, 06:17 PM

Paul,

Good point and very constructive!

Uncletoad · #14 10-28-2008, 06:55 PM

I think it's important to be musical as much as possible. When the band is infighting it shows and while some may enjoy that kind of tension it's usually not fun to watch for the masses. Clearly the drummer is being a dick. If he continues being that head strong he'll find less and less work available unless somehow he becomes a total badass in spite of himself.

If you can find the music in the kickoff tempo you'll grow as a musician far more than moving it to your comfort zone. There is always something in any tune at any tempo that you can dig into that is unique to that spot. If the section doesn't find it right away by a handful of times around it will. That assumes mutual respect and cooperation.

When tempos move faster or slower I try to resist if I don't feel the musicality in the move. That way if everyone is listening they'll move back and rejoin me. If they don't then I try to find a spot in the new tempo that works and assume the ensemble or soloist was looking for another color or vibe that tempo wasn't providing. Sometimes you can pull or push it back at some point in the frame--end of solo, move into the head and out or what have you. Then it doesn't seem like a screw up, it's art.

Respect, cooperation, listening, providing like intensity, sharing etc. These are the things patrons respond positively to. Anger, struggles with no apparent release, discord, ignorance etc. These are bad vibe things that empty joints before the set ends.

If you look up before you walk off and the club is empty, you ****ed something up.

PlanetEarth · #15 10-28-2008, 07:04 PM

Respect the groove... Always.... It's gotta feel good, if someone jumps the tempo you can fight it or roll with it, dare say fighting it will be awkward at best. Can't imagine a decent combo of players couldn't just be *musical* and make 'whatever' work....

Jazzdogg · #16 10-28-2008, 07:20 PM

All good points, but I have to ask: was there eye contact among the musicians on stage? I'm used to exchanging subtle (and not-so-subtle) clues in the form of body language, glances, and so forth while playing; when in doubt, the leader breaks the tie, whether it's the "band leader," or the de facto leader of the tune being played (from what you've told us, it was the trumpet player).

In my band, the leader almost always counts off tunes a little slower than we end up playing them - it's become an inside joke - but, I wouldn't presume to make such an assumption about the leader of another band, especially if I were sitting-in.

Kevin Hsieh · #17 10-28-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

All good points, but I have to ask: was there eye contact among the musicians on stage? I'm used to exchanging subtle (and not-so-subtle) clues in the form of body language, glances, and so forth while playing; when in doubt, the leader breaks the tie, whether it's the "band leader," or the de facto leader of the tune being played (from what you've told us, it was the trumpet player).

In my band, the leader almost always counts off tunes a little slower than we end up playing them - it's become an inside joke - but, I wouldn't presume to make such an assumption about the leader of another band, especially if I were sitting-in.

There was eye contact between him and me. mostly from him trying to get me onto his side. To his defense, it did feel more natural at the new tempo. I was just fighting with him because i've been so focused on keeping time recently. but as many people have expressed here, musicality comes first.

he's a great drummer and comfortable at playing in any tempo. To him his main focus is trying to make the soloists sound better.

Marc Piane · #18 10-28-2008, 07:34 PM

druckin fummers!!!

When playing in an group there is no place for ego. How many times have we rolled our eyes at some horn player that is just using the rhythm section as an Abersold tape. This is the same thing. He made his will more important. Not the path to good music. Definitely his fault.

Sounds like the boy needs the guy that counted it off to kick his a$$ for intentionally changing a tempo.

JeffKissell · #19 10-28-2008, 08:55 PM

Your drummer buddy was out of line, especially if you were sitting in. It was totally not cool to change a tempo. Many have touched on it, but you've gotta find the music where it's at. Part of being a pro is listening to and respecting your bandmates, especially on the stand.

If it's your own project then all bets are off and you two could wrassle for it if you wanted.
-J

hdiddy · #20 10-28-2008, 10:15 PM

Thinking about it some more.... if it was some tough old school kinda guy - I don't think I would be surprised if the band came to a screeching halt by the leader and shouted *** at the drummer. Think of it this way, if it was Roy Hargrove or <insert name here>, do you think you would do that with them?

Edit: Since when is WT* censored around here? ***?

Edit #2: Weird... it decided to take it the second time around. ***.

Edit #3: AAArrrrrgggh