Why not just bring an electric?

[Marc Piane]

I have to admit (sorry Freak) that I can deal with bad drummers better than bad soundmen. I've played a few gigs where I couldn't even let go of the strings without howling feedback and all the phase switch, HPF, towel behind the tailpiece **** was no help. Or where the bass is so loud in the house that it is louder than your amp on stage. I feel totally handcuffed when stuff like this happens.

To be fair I have also worked with some great soundmen. To bad they seem few and far between.

[dgelting]

Reminded again of how much better opportunity there is in the soundman field than the bass playing field.

There are lots of good bassists and so few good soundmen - makes me glad I can do both. How often does the soundman get paid more than the musicians....

TroyK - Is Seattle really bad for soundmen? I'm thinking about moving out that way - would a good soundperson be able to find gigs quickly? I'd imagine that it's easier to break into than playing (not that I'm gong to stop doing that) - there seem to be lots of great players out that way.

Seems like I should be pimping my sevices to Chicago too - I go down there already to play bass, might as well go down to do sound too - at least then I can take the train and not hump my gear. What clubs are in the most need?

[Marc Piane]

Well the problem is the money. There are some really good soundmen around but few are in clubs. If a club owner is only going to pay $75 for the soundman they are going to get a pretty novice person.

[Bassmickeyd]

Festival organizers, it seems, think festival sound reinforcement is one place they can skimp on and get away with.
That said;
One jazz festive I did, last summer, had a brilliant local soundman who knew the exact size and power requirements needed and stayed mixing the band through out the whole show. My wife said it was the best we ever sounded.
Another gig I did last summer, the soundman was curt, bass bins were too big and boomy, he did sound check during our first tune then covered the board and walked away. Every year same gig same lousy soundman. But, the great thing is people will tell him his mix sucks to his face. I mean what's he going to do, make you sound worst. Which raises a good point, since his best sucks his bad might just be pretty damn good.

Now addressing playing el. bass as well as upright;
They are two different instruments and you have to treat them as such. I agree that a swing walking bass can sound so much better on the upright but the el. bass shouldn't be looked at as a 1,2, to 5-positions instrument. The reason for those terms on the upright is because it's fretless and the change in hand and wrist positioning as not to cause injury. On a 4-string Fender J-bass you can play one finger per fret from the 1st. fret to the 20th and not cause any real discomfort or damage.
Start by doing this don't play anything, (solos, riffs or licks) on the el bass you play on the upright and vice versa. That will help you to improve on the el bass without constant comparison to how it feels and sounds on the upright. It's a start.

[dgelting]

Yeah - I suppose spending more time practicing on the BG in the first place would be a way to start

I think that if I just played it as much as the upright for a couple of months I'd be happening.

I don't think that $75 for an evening of work is that bad. Then again, I live in Milwaukee and rents here are cheaper than Chicago. I'll work for $75 up here as long as I don't bring any of my own gear, it doesn't take up any "daytime" hours, and I get some food/drinks thrown in.

I figure that if I work for a reasonable amount, there's more money around to help take care of the musicians. In almost any non-cover band rock show I work each musician makes much less than $75. That said, musicians are always very happy when they get better sound for less money than usual.

I could probably afford to charge $175 and cover expenses if I did work in Chicago - do you think that's doable?

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by fingers

To be fair I have also worked with some great soundmen. To bad they seem few and far between.

They're out there, as you say. The good ones work good gigs for good pay. If they're not on your gig, ask why.

[Jefenator]

I guess I'm lucky - most of my Jazz gigs are in too small a setting to involve any kind of PA mix. Alas, the guys in the band can obliterate all subtlety without any outside help! IME insensitive drumming is the worst offender, but ham-fisted chord comping is a very close second.

I used to be very uncomfortable, trying to play straight-ahead Jazz on a fretted instrument. Then I discovered it works better to try and mimic organ bass. That stuff can swing like nobody's business and IME the pork chop is much closer to that sound & feel. (Especially with higher gain and a lighter touch, which I know is a whole different approach from what we're used to.)

I still love to play upright, but in the absence of nuance... screw it. As another poster already stated: I'm getting too old for this ****.

[Bassmickeyd]

Playing electric beside a tired old drummer/basher as the beads of sweat gather on his forehead and his tired old fills slow in the beat, then we turn, we smile, we nod knowing he be clutching his heart as we hear the leader calls one more fast tune before the break.
Revenge is sweet.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Jefenator

I guess I'm lucky - most of my Jazz gigs are in too small a setting to involve any kind of PA mix.

I've actually rarely had this issue with jazz. Even the gigs in big venues with lots of sound reinforcement. It is always at rock clubs.

[Mark Perna]

I hate dealing with sound guys but I have to say that I've been lucky more times than not. Sure, I've gotten the guy who tries to make me sound like I'm subbing for John Paul Jones in Led Zepplin and I've wanted to put a bullet in his brain because of it. I never do though (mainly because I don't own a gun). Most of the time I have decent luck though. If I have a say in the setup (i.e. it is my gig), I make sure they minimally mic the drums. Overheads and maybe a kick mic. That ensures the drums sounds like an organic whole and not a collection of independent drums with a too loud snare smashing through the mix. They almost always take a line out of my Focus which means they get pickup and a bit of AMT. They generally have to work to screw that sound up too badly.

And I don't alway mind a loud drummer. It depends on the gig. If I'm playing standards, I hate it because all subtlety and dynamics are lost. If we're channelling Coltrane where everything is high energy, it can be a lot of fun. I would NEVER play EB in place of UB because of volume though. I can get stupid loud with the UB if I have to. I'd only play EB if it was musically appropriate to do so. I very occasionally take R&B or rock gigs and I play EB on those gigs in most cases.

mark

[Will Yager]

I don't really have anything to add other than I have definitely had plenty of experience playing with tasteless, loud drummers. It just ****ing sucks....

[AMJBASS]

Originally Posted by Bassmickeyd

We have to remember that bashing drummers have been on this planet longer than we articulate bassist and they'll probably be here a lot longer after we're gone. It would be nice to say no to the calls when informed the bashers on the gig, but let's be realistic, he married the band leaders fat ugly sister we didn't. We had the chance but we chose style and grace.
Choices;
1) Buy a good pickup. I use a Wilson ($$) but sound better than a magnetic. I also have a Gage for when the bashers out of town.
2) Buy a good amp. I loved my GK 1x12 but I threw in the towel and found a used EA iAMP 350 that can compete.
3) Take the electric out to the gig and plug her in when the volume gets out of control. Be verbal about it when someone asks, "Hey, man why the electric?". Tell them I can't hear myself and I've decided it's important.
4) Talk to the drummer. I know this ones a crap shoot but it's worth a try. It takes some guys longer than others to get it and we have to do our bit to at least try. I'm sure you're not the only one feeling this way.

Luck is good.

Agreed on all points! Glad that Wilson is working out too(my old Wilson?)! I often think of grabbing another one. Great for when the volume gets up there.

The only time I really want to play the electric is when the gig turns out to be a quasi Jazz gig where we end up playing some dance covers near the end and it gets a bit out of control(volume wise). However I don't get too many of those calls.

[chicagodoubler]

Jefenator- YES!!!!!! Much love for organ bass.

Re: sound gigs here, things are pretty locked down, although there was just a Craigslist posting for someone needing a soundguy for a wedding band.

[dgelting]

But are they locked down by guys that suck? For all the complaining I hear, I'd think that a convincing argument could me made with management to get more talented people behind the boards. Let's not complain about it, lets get these jokers fired and get competent people behind the boards. Customers don't like hearing bad sound either.

It's really not all that hard to do sound IMHO, as long as a person is well rounded musically. The problem is is that lots of people that do sound wanted to play music first but failed at that. Then they decide to do sound. We need people who are happy with and good at their music playing to be behind the boards. People that do sound to compliment their gigging. That's where I'm at and it's working well for everyone involved.

I'm not saying that every good soundperson should also be a good musician, but I am saying that a good soundperson is someone who knows what a wide variety of good music sounds like. It just happens that most of the time those people also end up as pretty competent musicians.

[Jason Hollar]

Originally Posted by dgelting

I just wish I could play the bass guitar as well as I can my upright. I just can't seem to walk as well on the BG - does anyone else have this problem?

If this happens a lot to you my suggestion would be a magnetic pickup for your upright. You can just quickly mount it to the end of your fingerboard and keep it in your case if you don't need it. Everyone still gets the good-looking upright and you can sound more like a bass guitar.

This sums it up for me.

I'm a decent electric player -- but really prefer using the axe for rockin' blues and R&B gigs. I can walk swing & bebop on it -- but I don't really "feel" it.

However, I just fitted a nice used Biesele on my beater upright and it rocks! It can get really stoopid loud without feedback and it somehow retains a good bit of that "woody" sound...as much will realistically come from a magnetic pup.

Looking forward to NOT having to bring two basses to my jazz gigs this year -- especially the louder, outdoor jazz concerts with huge subwoofers.

[emilio g]

First of all, the idea of checking out organ players to learn to swing more on the electric is a fantastic idea. Never would have thought of that one.

Loud drummers...ugh. I've got one of these gigs coming up. I've been told the pay, food, and guitar player are fantastic, but the drummer plays Stella by Starlight more like Enter Sandman. But he found the gig through a relative so he can't really be replaced.

Around guys that that, I usually play quieter. Sometimes it pulls the group together, and sometimes it does absolutely nothing. Either way I don't see any sense in going deaf or tearing up my hands because someone else is being obnoxious.

If the soundman is an issue, my experience has been that if they can't deal with the DI from my amp or Fishman preamp, BG doesn't fix the problem. I've just moved from a bad DB sound to a bad BG sound.

Where I did consider the electric was with a TERRIBLE piano player who dropped beats and bars constantly. She insisted that I played the melodies to tunes arco...which would have been fun if she could keep the form. But, it was so bad I just stopped taking the gigs....which leads to the other scary part...these were actually ok-ish paying gigs.

[chicagodoubler]

Ah that's a whole new thread: the disproportionate competence to pay scale, IE, the more a pianist loses form or the drummer sucks the more you get payed, whereas the gigs with the most amazing cats pays peanuts and you buy your own drinks.

[osmarokuma]

thats interesting because I often have problems with amps while playing and usually they just dont work so I have to keep playing. I agree its annoying when the drummer is one of those guys that just isnt listening to what is going on but I really love playing without a pickup. In fact I used to go to rehearsals without a pick up back when my action was ultra high. Depending on the bass really cuz thats how the old time big bands used to play, no amps, pure digging.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by dgelting

TroyK - Is Seattle really bad for soundmen? I'm thinking about moving out that way - would a good soundperson be able to find gigs quickly? I'd imagine that it's easier to break into than playing (not that I'm gong to stop doing that) - there seem to be lots of great players out that way.

You know, I play about 1 non-straight ahead jazz gig every 2 years it seems. So, I don't completely understand the soundman scene here. And yeah, there are a lot of good players here, but look at our Craigslist. There are always people looking for people. It's not just how you play, but who you are and how easy and reliable you are to deal with. So, don't be afraid to try to move out here and work as a musician. I moved here from Miami 9 years ago and find it an extremely open town to break into. I remember watching the Daily Show during the WTO riots in '99 and John Stewart said something like "Things have gotten so bad in Seattle that for nearly 48 hours no one has started a band!"

Back to sound guys. There is a lot of opportunity for them and I've played a few places (though I chose not to anymore) where we're playing for the door or part of the door, but we have to guarantee their soundman and their doorman. Even though we didn't want a soundman at all and he knew dirkall about sound support for a jazz quartet. On upright, I have never met a soundman I liked. O.K., maybe one at an outdoor festival, where we really needed one. I cringe whenever I take a gig and realize that someone other than me is going to be fiddling with my output during the gig.

I like listening and interacting to the other musicians, I hate having someone not in the band telling me to "roll off my mids" or some such bs while I'm playing. Weasles.

Obviously it's different for other types of music and at a certain room size and setting or an outdoor venue, it's necessary. I just don't usually find myself in those places.

Come visit Seattle if you're thinking about moving. I'll show you around.

[olivieraleman]

Glad someone started a thread on this, its been bothering me. I think that we all try to reproduce the sound we hear in our head in a live situation, and become frustrated when we cant. Was Doug Watkins able to reproduce the sound he had on Blue 7 in a live situation? Ive read where Mingus had to overdub his parts on the Massey Hall Concert cause he couldnt be heard. On Tranes live recordings Jimmy Garrison is almost inaudible unless he is soloing. In fact, he and Tyner would sometimes leave the stage when Elvin and Trane got going. Do you think Pres could hear Walter Page thru a full big band in '37? So, I am not fighting it anymore, when the drummer sounds like Mad Max instead of Max Roach. I am playing the fretless slab and saving the Upton for the Patsy Cline stuff.