will db ruin my violin chops?

violinoscar · #1 10-07-2006, 06:15 PM

I have been a jazz violinist for a number of years and have recently decided to take up db, something I have wanted to do for a long time. My big concern is what this will do to my violin chops. Is there anyone out there who plays both, and if so, how do you cope with intonation etc when swapping one for the other (especially when called on to play a violin solo right after a lengthy set on the bass, or visa-versa)?

jsbachsonata · #2 10-08-2006, 02:15 AM

Hey there,

I also play both violin and double bass. Here's my story: i used to play violin classicaly and changed to double bass b/c i really wanted to learn jazz.. Now, I consider myself a double bass player. However, after I was exposed to jazz through my double bass, i started to play jazz, pop, contemporary violin.

Here's what i found: If you want to be serious about your violin playing.. you will have to sacrifice bass playing. Considering that jazz, pop, and contemporary styles on the violin are less developed and not as difficult techinically, it IS possible for one to play both bass and violin. However, eventually I gave up violin (which i was very good at) because I felt that playing both diminished my artistic integrity. Thus, playing double bass is what i do now, and I feel that i can do this and feel satisfied with the music i create.

If you're considering being a virtuoso or a really good player in the long run, you will need to develop fine tuned muscles for the violin. Playing the bass doeesn't allow you to do that. I know that you're thinking that it's possible for one to play really fast passages and develop those fine motor skills required for that, but the fine motor skills you develop when playing bass is quite different than those you develop when playing violin. I've played everything from rabbath pieces to bottessini so I know that even though these pieces require me to move fast, they don't aid me in violin playing in any way...

Here's a long story made short: if you want to be serious about your violin playing, you have to give up the bass. If you decide that bass playing is your future, then go ahead with bass playing. Playing both instruments will only hurt the art you create and not do you any good in the long run.

Aaron Saunders · #3 10-08-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Playing both instruments will only hurt the art you create and not do you any good in the long run.

I'm sorry, but this seems like a load of BS.

I agree that in a technical sense, you probably won't be the virtuoso on violin that you might've been had you not taken up the double bass. However, I think that playing both will "diminish...artistic integrity" is a load. I'm sorry, but playing multiple instruments does not diminish artistic integrity. Don Thompson is one of the top bassists in Toronto, as well as being a very gifted jazz pianist and vibraphone player, and can play supportive drums very well (rock solid time.) I remember someone on TB saying that he saw Don play 4 times, and every time he was playing a different instrument. Does the fact he plays several instruments change the fact that Don is regarded as one of the best musicians in Toronto? Does it diminish his artistic integrity? No. No it sure does not.

If you want to play both, play both. Technically, you won't be as good as if you dedicated yourself to one instrument, but this is true of all multi-instrumentalists. For that matter, we can always save the "how important is technique anyway?" discussion for a different thread.

Jumbotron · #4 10-08-2006, 08:24 AM

I play a lot of instruments, including violin and EUB. In my personal experience, the only thing that hurts the violin angle is that practice time is eaten away into by other instruments. While I'm sure if I practiced more, I'd be a better violinist, that goes without saying, and seems to have nothing to do with the bass. I'm sure that my violin chops would also go down if, e.g., I had a baby.

Tomasito · #5 10-08-2006, 08:59 AM

Hello gang, I haven't posted in a while, but this one's right up my alley.

I don't believe playing double bass should have a detrimental effect on your violin playing.

I've been playing violin for 13 years, bass for 10, but I also play and gig piano, guitar, trumpet, saxes, tres, kit and latin percussion, and I'm working on making my trombone playing giggable. Oh, and I'm learning Tabla! It keeps me busy, but I'm by no means dabbling in any of them, in fact there are people I regularly gig with on some instruments that aren't aware that I play any others.

How this impacts upon my 'artistic integrity,' I couldn't say. I certainly don't lock myself away with my violin for 12 hours a day, so in that respect I don't have the same commitment to my instrument that some of the most serious violinists must. Put it this way, I don't expect to 'master' the violin any time soon.

These days I'm not a classical musician by any stretch of the imagination, although I enjoy the classical guitar repertoire and Indian classical music is becoming something of a passion, and I think that's probably the most important distinction to make. Far from the distinctly different physical approaches of the bass and violin hampering progress in one or the other, I believe that some folks will tell you that there aren't enough hours in the day to really become one with both instruments. Perhaps it will just take more days!!

Right, having covered my back and written my autobiography I'll answer your actual question!! I don't personally think the violin and the double bass share much in terms of the mechanics of playing them. I'm not thinking 'bass' when I'm playing violin, or vice versa. On the bass you'll often be using several fingers in support of the finger that's stopping the note you're playing. When was the last time you did that on your violin? There just isn't space on the thing. That immediately makes your left hand approach feel different.

As for the bow, well, yes, you'll need one for both instruments, but you will absolutely NOT be using it in the same way. One of the weirdest things I ever hear said to young bass students who've already played the violin or cello (YBSWAPTVOC?) is "You ought to play French bow, it will be more familliar." That one piece of advice completely misinformed my own french bow hold for months! I honestly believe that you could have thrown Paganini a French bass bow and he would have been just as lost on it as any beginning bassist. So, the right hand will feel different too.

You're going to read a different clef, you're going to have an entirely different role in almost any music you play.

Oh, and you don't put the bass under your chin.

I don't think your violin playing will especially inform your bass playing, but I don't think it will make it harder either, and nor should going to work on the biggun make it harder or any less enjoyable to fly around on the little'un. I can't think of any 'bad habits' that might be borne out of shared elements of technique. I suspect there may be some between the violin and viola, or even the cello and the bass, but not here. OF COURSE you can't shed as much on both instruments as you could with just one, but we don't all want to be the same kind of musician, do we?

If I spoke Russian, but I also wanted to learn to speak German, there'd be nothing to stop me from doing so, but I'd have to come to terms with the fact that I can't read every Russian book ever written if I want to read some German one's too.

Good luck!! You will love the bass. The first time you see an ff low E coming up in the next bar when you're used to being above the stave in another clef will be a defining moment!! Don't hold back!

Tomasito

PatrickC · #6 10-08-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violinoscar

My big concern is what this will do to my violin chops.

The double bass destroyed my violin chops. Once I picked it up, I never wanted to play violin again.

Johnny Frigo played both. As others have said, the only real issue is practice time.

damonsmith · #7 10-08-2006, 11:42 AM

"will db ruin my violin chops?"

-Hopefully!

jtlownds · #8 10-08-2006, 02:21 PM

After reading your post, I dragged my old violin out of the closet. I haven't played it in 40 years. My intonation on the violin used to be really crappy. Well, I tuned it up, and guess what. My intonation is still really crappy. There you have it - proof positive that playing DB has had no affect on my violin chops

PaulCannon · #9 10-08-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsbachsonata

Here's a long story made short: if you want to be serious about your violin playing, you have to give up the bass. If you decide that bass playing is your future, then go ahead with bass playing. Playing both instruments will only hurt the art you create and not do you any good in the long run.

If I'm not mistaken, Edgar Meyer can play about 9 or ten different instruments competently, and I'm sure he'd argue that playing things away from the bass have only helped him as a musician. I don't see why that would be different for violin.

dansolobass · #10 10-08-2006, 10:34 PM

I actually started on violin 13 years ago, played viola, and cello and finally came to the bass several years later. For years I took lessons on violin, cello, and bass. Then over the years my violin playing got less and less, until I stopped playing for several years. My violin playing simply got worse because I didn't keep it up, I lost interest. Now when I go back to playing violin, or viola, or cello, I do feel that playing the bass so long has trained my body, muscles, and hands a certain way that is not idiomatic for the smaller instruments. I do believe that playing the bass and playing the violin are very different worlds, but if someone can keep up on both instruments they should be able to play reasonably well without a problem. My main problem was losing interest in the other instruments because, ya know, bass is far superior.

sibass89 · #11 10-08-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

If I'm not mistaken, Edgar Meyer can play about 9 or ten different instruments competently, and I'm sure he'd argue that playing things away from the bass have only helped him as a musician. I don't see why that would be different for violin.

A couple of months ago Edgar Meyer was featured in Strings Magazine talking about this. He recorded a new album where he played every track. He played piano, bass, mandolin, and other instruments as well. It is played completely by Meyer on every instrument. This is something to definately think about.

Paul Warburton · #12 10-09-2006, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

I'm sorry, but this seems like a load of BS.

I agree that in a technical sense, you probably won't be the virtuoso on violin that you might've been had you not taken up the double bass. However, I think that playing both will "diminish...artistic integrity" is a load. I'm sorry, but playing multiple instruments does not diminish artistic integrity. Don Thompson is one of the top bassists in Toronto, as well as being a very gifted jazz pianist and vibraphone player, and can play supportive drums very well (rock solid time.) I remember someone on TB saying that he saw Don play 4 times, and every time he was playing a different instrument. Does the fact he plays several instruments change the fact that Don is regarded as one of the best musicians in Toronto? Does it diminish his artistic integrity? No. No it sure does not.

If you want to play both, play both. Technically, you won't be as good as if you dedicated yourself to one instrument, but this is true of all multi-instrumentalists. For that matter, we can always save the "how important is technique anyway?" discussion for a different thread.

#1 Don Thomson is brilliant on all the above listed instruments.
Red Mitchell was a briliant bassist, pianist, singer and poet!
Jim Ferguson, the great bassist/singer from Nashville spent many years learning how to balance these talents from Red!!
Balance is important, but who says you can't do it all?
As far as Aarons statement that Don Thomson is one of the best at what he does in Toronto, i'd say he's one of the best in the entire world on at least piano and bass!

Steve Killingsworth · #13 10-09-2006, 07:07 AM

Don Thompson is the man.

While I can't comment on playing the violin, I might offer my perspective regarding the guitar. I really believe taking up the guitar has made me a better bassist. Certainly, the required motor skills are vastly different and working on two instruments limits the amount of practice time on each one. However, playing a second instrument has opened my ears to new ways to approach a tune.

Tomasito · #14 10-09-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

However, playing a second instrument has opened my ears to new ways to approach a tune.

Absolutely, this is my feeling as well. That's not to say you can't be a great bassist without playing other instruments, but my own experience is that concepts I might have spent time on with other instruments naturally find their way into my bass playing even if I haven't ever consciously applied them.

violinoscar, I reckon you will find that having been a jazz violinist as much as having been a violinist will have exposed you to loads of harmony and sounds that are just waiting to be played on the bass.

Aaron Saunders · #15 10-09-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

However, playing a second instrument has opened my ears to new ways to approach a tune.

Definitely a +1 to this. In addition to DB (1.5 years) I've also played slab for 4 years, guitar for 2, and I'm learning piano. I remember when I first learned Body and Soul that in order to get it to a point where I really knew it I got out a guitar and worked out a full chord melody to it before I even learned it on DB.

Every time I learn a tune now I learn it on the piano in addition to the DB. What also helps is learning how to play it via Chris Fitzgerald's method -- singing the head and playing the bassline at the same time. I also do this with singing the head and playing it on the piano as well.

Which brings me to my next point...isn't it a huge expectation amongst jazz musicians that everybody should know how to play the piano at least to some degree? We're not all looking to be Art Tatum, but even just "arranger's piano." I'm pretty sure Jack Dejohnette's "artistic integrity" hasn't been hurt by being able to play his ass off on piano and drums.

Paul, you ever meet Don? A trumpet playing buddy of mine at Humber is taking once a month lessons on improvisation with him right now.

Also, is it a crime that I've been in the city for more than a month and a half and I *still* haven't seen Don play? I only saw Dave Young for the first time on Thursday...

violinoscar · #16 10-09-2006, 05:40 PM

Thanks for all the help, Guys. My own thoughts have been vacillting between the 2 extremes. One thing I feel sure of is that the db will strengthen my ear as to what is going on around me when I am soloing on the vn. Someone once told me that knowing your own part and no-one else's is like knowing your own lines in a play without having seen the entire script.
You replies have all been a big help, and yes, I will be pursuing the DB. Thanks again

Paul Warburton · #17 10-10-2006, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Paul, you ever meet Don? A trumpet playing buddy of mine at Humber is taking once a month lessons on improvisation with him right now.

Aaron, Don and Terry Clarke used to spend their breaks over at the Jazz Workshop in San Francisco when I was working there with Bill Evans and Philly Joe...they were working across the street with John Handy in the mid 60's.
Then, when Don came to Denver with George Shearing, he came to my house to hang and to listen to a lot of Red Mitchell stuff I have. He also came to some of my gigs and sat in on piano.....he was chicken s*** to play my five string! Thank God! Brilliant is the only word for Don!
Please ask your friend to give Don my best.
Dave Young was also at my house for a hang when he was here in Denver for some gigs. Another great one!

warenut · #18 11-20-2006, 07:08 PM

Check out Rob Thomas. He's the violinist for the String Trio of New York, ex-Jazz Passenger. He teaches in the string program at Berklee. He's a great jazz bassist, and, imho, one of the baddest jazz violinists out there.

fryBASS · #19 12-24-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtlownds

After reading your post, I dragged my old violin out of the closet. I haven't played it in 40 years. My intonation on the violin used to be really crappy. Well, I tuned it up, and guess what. My intonation is still really crappy. There you have it - proof positive that playing DB has had no affect on my violin chops

musicman5string · #20 02-04-2007, 02:15 PM

I never played violin, so I can't comment from personal experience. However, I do play some guitar, and I can tell you that after working alot on DB it destroys any guitar technique I built up. The reason is: DB strings are bigger, thicker, harder to manage in the left hand. They also require about 1,000 more hand strength. So consequently when I go to guitar, I feel like a gorilla manhandling the thing. It's just that my left hand is not used to being light and delicate.
Conversly, have you ever seen a guitarist try the DB? LOL.

So anyway I imagine for me that going from DB to violin would be similar.