Will learning Simandl-style screw up Electric Bass technique?

[jamiefoxer]

While I've been messing around with my Palatino using standard Electric Bass fingering (1,2,3,4, one per fret), I've been getting down and serious on learning Simandl-technique to really get my intonation handled and learn the proper way to go up and down a double-bass fingerboard. I'm right now just starting out on Simandl's "Half or Usual position" exercises...practicing the correct fingerings for the first three half tones after the Open string.

One question that has lingered in my mind is related to something a world-class electric bassist told me recently at an artists' gathering at a friend's picnic (I won't name names to protect his identity, but...let's just say he's a regular at the NAMM show and has play with a who's, who of the jazz/fusion world). I asked him if he doubled on double-bass ala Stanley Clarke, and his response was very straight to the point: "nah...once I started to practice, it messed with my regular technique on electric, and since I didn't really see a benefit to learning it, because I was getting so many gigs on electric that I couldn't even take them all, I decided to just focus only on electric".

The operative part of this discussion is his usage of the words, "it messed with my technique on electric". I'm concerned enough about this because A) I play electric and Puerto Rican Cuatro, which is tuned in 4ths, and is approached with the same electric-style "One Finger Per Fret" technique, and 2) I've heard of similar "downgrades" in technique when people double-up on similar instruments (e.g. flute to saxophone, embouchure issues, etc.)

Basically, I'd love to learn to double-up on double bass for mostly jazz and latin-jazz/salsa applications, but not if it will be at expense of my electric bass technique (which, at the end of the day, is what I get hired to work mostly).

Now, I will say I'm aware of bassists such as Stanley Clarke and Ruben Rodriguez and others who regularly play both...but...it's just a concern of mine.

Incidentally, (and maybe Ruben can answer this, because I know he posts on the board), do they approach double-bass technique the Simandl way, or do they just play it with their own, electric-style fingering...or the opposite..do they approach the electric with a 1, 2 and 4 fingering style, or do they keep seperate techniques for each.

[jallenbass]

Only if you stop working on your electric chops.

Same analogy with reading and creativity. Only if you stop working on your creative side.

[jamiefoxer]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

Only if you stop working on your electric chops.

Same analogy with reading and creativity. Only if you stop working on your creative side.

Nah...not gonna happen. I spend at least 30-40 minutes every day just doing some warmup exercises that I was given by a mentor of mine on electric bass.

I guess I just worry that I'll start going through my scales the next day and start omitting the 3rd finger when playing the electric.

Any other comments from those who successfully do the electric and the double-bass?

[kherber]

I started on EB in '73, picked up the DB in '75 and doubled heavily through most of the 70s and 80s. I started with Simandl, but found the three-finger method confusing. I switched to four fingers and stayed there. I don't have particularly large hands, but with practice they stretched.

Doc

[NickyBass]

Simandl technique is wonderful and even translates well to electric. I've been using the 3 finger technique on electric for years. When I solo, or need to stretch out a bit, I will switch to 1 finger per fret, but it just feels natural and puts less strain to use Simandl.

It may seem odd at first, but switching back and forth isn't an issue anymore.

[damonsmith]

You should end up using all sorts of fingering techniques and be able to move fluidly between them. Trying to use electric fingering on upright is folly many fall into, don't bother. Also, make sure to always practice Simandl arco.

[dodgy_ian]

I found it only messed with it at the beginning...after that it was ok, just make sure to build in time practising both!

[kherber]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Trying to use electric fingering on upright is folly many fall into, don't bother.

Respectfully, and non-confrontationally, I ask why? I'm self-taught (on bass anyway, I had formal training on a variety of woodwinds, mostly saxophones). I've never really understood why the three-finger method was preferred. What advantage does it offer?

Doc

[fingers]

Nope.

I'd try to approach the DB as a different instrument than the EB though. There is enough different about both the left and right hand technique that it is almost like learning another instrument.

Oh, and DOC. The string length is considerably longer and the notes further apart than on the EB. Doing a 4 finger method down low is inviting injury and bad intonation. Lotsa folks (including me) use 4 up higher.

[dodgy_ian]

Originally Posted by fingers

Nope.

I'd try to approach the DB as a different instrument than the EB though. There is enough different about both the left and right hand technique that it is almost like learning another instrument.

Oh, and DOC. The string length is considerably longer and the notes further apart than on the EB. Doing a 4 finger method down low is inviting injury and bad intonation. Lotsa folks (including me) use 4 up higher.

+1

[kherber]

Originally Posted by fingers

Nope.

I'd try to approach the DB as a different instrument than the EB though. There is enough different about both the left and right hand technique that it is almost like learning another instrument.

Absolutely. Like a lot of EB players, I came into it thinking it was just a bigger variant of the instrument I was already playing. Not so...really not so.

Originally Posted by fingers

Oh, and DOC. The string length is considerably longer and the notes further apart than on the EB. Doing a 4 finger method down low is inviting injury and bad intonation. Lotsa folks (including me) use 4 up higher.

I admit I have to move a tiny bit to reach that fourth finger position down low, but not nearly as much as I would have to move to accomodate a three-finger method. Injury risk is, of course, a factor, but the DB is a mighty instrument and injury risk exists playing either method.

But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. We all have to find methods that work best for each of us. I was just curious about why it was deemed "folly". It's worked fine for me.

Doc

[fingers]

Originally Posted by kherber

Injury risk is, of course, a factor, but the DB is a mighty instrument and injury risk exists playing either method.

I'm looking anything I can do to minimize injury. My landlord and my wife will not care about what fingering method I used if the rent check bounces because I couldn't play.

I think the bigger thing for me is intonation. I have huge hands. I could play the four finger thing down low. When I've tried just for fun my intonation sucks (more than it already does). I also like the tone of heavy strings and med string height. I need all the hand strength I can muster to get a really huge tone which is very important to me.

[kherber]

Originally Posted by fingers

My landlord and my wife will not care about what fingering method I used if the rent check bounces because I couldn't play.

Wives and landlords can be SO unreasonable...

Doc

[lhoward]

Originally Posted by kherber

Wives and landlords can be SO unreasonable...

Doc

Both conditions are fixable.

I just couldn't resist! :-)))

[tomshepp]

Funny, I started on EB and learned the Simandl style half position. Mind you, a very long time ago. I think the one finger per fret method is tough for young students in first position on EB. Maybe because its how I learned, but I can't see how anyone can play one finger per half step, down low on DB.

[BassBus]

All this just goes to show you can't have a 'one size fits all' approach to playing. DB and EB are indeed two completely different instruments separated by a common tuning but everyone has to find a style that suits them. We all have different sized hands so finding your own style is what is most important for you. If that means using Simandl technique use it. It's been around for a very long time so it can't be all wrong. I often use the three finger fretting technique on EB too. Some people just use two fingers to fret EB. May not be great technique but it works for them, that's all that matters. So if your are comfortable with Simandl use it. THE MOST IMPORTANT MATTER IS KEEP PRACTICING ALL THE INSTRUMENTS YOU PLAY, DON'T NEGLECT THEM!

[jackie x]

I think that using Simandl is wonderful,especially bowed when possible. When I first started to play DB I hardly touched the electric. Next thing I knew, I was using the three finger thing on electric when I picked it back up,but also found no problem using the four fingers if I had to. I think the versatility is great and opens up new doors on different patterns.

[Audiophage]

I've found that the only thing about learning upright that has caused me to loose some bass guitar chops is the lack of practice. The Simandl fingerings aren't going to mess up your electric playing, I've found that because of the size and orientation difference I don't even think of the 2 instruments in the same regard.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by Audiophage

I've found that the only thing about learning upright that has caused me to loose some bass guitar chops is the lack of practice. The Simandl fingerings aren't going to mess up your electric playing, I've found that because of the size and orientation difference I don't even think of the 2 instruments in the same regard.

+1

[Jason Hollar]

QUOTE=NickyBass -- Simandl technique is wonderful and even translates well to electric. I've been using the 3 finger technique on electric for years. When I solo, or need to stretch out a bit, I will switch to 1 finger per fret, but it just feels natural and puts less strain to use Simandl.

The Ray Brown Method shows Simandl in the lower registers then an "extended fingering" (basically 1-2-3-4) in the middle register.

I use Simandl for both EB & DB and I'm happy!