I'm designing upright bass tuners - I need opinions and feedback, please!

[mgcasella]

WOULD ANYONE BE INTERESTED IN UPGRADING THEIR UPRIGHT BASS TUNERS? I started thinking about this because mine aren't that great. Also, I looked online and the replacements I found were quite expensive.

Here are the specs I have thought of:
-Machined from titanium for light weight and durability
-Available in different colors (eg brass, black, etc)
-A locking mechanism to make string changes easier and tons of wraps unnecessary. It would be similar to the pole-through-post design on a Sperzel tuner (minus the thumbwheel).
-Constructed close to the size of other upright bass tuners (since there is no standard size) in order to minimize the amount of woodwork needed to install them.
-The buttons are attached with a screw (as opposed to being welded on). Therefore, they can be easily replaced if damaged
-A 40:1 gear ratio for tuning

I need help from all of you since I'm new to upright bass - I have some questions:
1. What does everyone think about this idea?
2. Would this be something you'd buy if you had cash to spare?
3. Given the above information, how much would you all be willing to spend on a full set? Or maybe just one to try out?
4. Does anyone have any feedback on the specs? Anything you would change? Anything you would add?
5. Any other ideas or feedback, in general?

So far, I've been told:
1. Keep a traditional design (eg clover buttons, etc).
2. Price range should be in the $120 - $150 per set ($35 per individual tuner).

Don't worry about hurting my feelings - give me constructive criticism :-) I'm just trying to see if this is something worth pursuing or if I should just put up and shut up regarding the crappy tuners on my bass. Also, if you think this isn't a good idea, please give me an idea as to why you think that.

Thanks in advance!

[Jake deVilliers]

The locking mechanism would fatally damage most DB strings, so I'd skip that part.

The shafts could be aluminium to save on weight and expense.

If the buttons are going to install with small machine screws into the end of the shaft like guitar tuners, I'd love to see some amber plastic buttons like some beautiful French tuners had. Or red or black or Ivoroid.

Titanium colour's fine with me for the gear and worm shaft.

I think $150 is unrealistic for quality tuners but I'm open!

[Thumpie]

Available in a matte finish. I don't like shiny brass machines, but, to me, brass with a dull surface is beautiful. They also blend better with older, weathered instruments.

Personally, I'm not a stickler for ultra fine ratios. My current bass has 36:1 gears, and they work fine. I never minded those tiny vintage Klusons on my other Kay either. So, for me, a 40:1 ratio wouldn't be a big selling point.

If you're going to attach the buttons with a screw, maybe make different shapes. It might even be interesting to let the player choose the finish independent of the rest of the tuner.

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

The locking mechanism would fatally damage most DB strings, so I'd skip that part.

The shafts could be aluminium to save on weight and expense.

If the buttons are going to install with small machine screws into the end of the shaft like guitar tuners, I'd love to see some amber plastic buttons like some beautiful French tuners had. Or red or black or Ivoroid.

Titanium colour's fine with me for the gear and worm shaft.

I think $150 is unrealistic for quality tuners but I'm open!

Jake, in your opinion, is saving a little weight really a big deal? I'm thinking about putting some old hat pin tuners on my Kay--for purely aesthetic reasons--but might decide not to if the extra weight might make a sonic difference.

[powerbass]

As Jake said, $150 IS unrealistic, EB tuners run more than that for four. I like that you are willing to give this a go. I like the ones pictured on James Ham's site http://www.hamstringsmusic.com

[mgcasella]

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone!

As for the price, my hope is to sell direct. This way there will be no middleman to jack up the price, which will bring the final price way down (hopefully). I know there are other people that market this way but I'm going to see if there is ANYTHING I can do to get the price down.

BTW those James Ham tuners look pretty cool

As for buttons, a lot of guitar tuners have different buttons you can switch out and I've always thought that was pretty cool. What kind of designs would be best for upright basses? I have an Engelhardt copy with clover-shaped buttons and I think those look great.

Also, would the locking mechanism really damage the strings? I was thinking it would be best for nylon whackers - would it damage those, as well as regular metal strings?

How would everyone feel about a hex input somewhere on the tuner that would allow a person with a drill (and a hex drill bit) to wind the strings?

[Phil Rowan]

IMHO, I don't think the locking mechanism is really necessary anyway. If someone wants to reduce the number of turns before getting a string to pitch all it takes is to leave a little more silk on the other end of the tuning shaft (plus, those little tuning cranks/attachments with a drill bit on the other end help solve this "issue" too).

[powerbass]

Funny you should mention the hex nut for fast tuning because that was one modification I thought about - would be cool if you could easily disengage the 40:1 ratio and switch to a 1:1 for fast stringing. I'm not sure this is a selling feature though. These guys make some cool hardware for EB, they use titanium too http://www.toone-townsend.com

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by powerbass

Funny you should mention the hex nut for fast tuning because that was one modification I thought about - would be cool if you could easily disengage the 40:1 ratio and switch to a 1:1 for fast stringing. I'm not sure this is a selling feature though. These guys make some cool hardware for EB, they use titanium too http://www.toone-townsend.com

Personally, the hex nut or unlocking feature wouldn't be a selling point for me. When I change strings--which isn't too often since I've settled into Spiros for at least the foreseeable future--I approach the task with patience.

Depending upon how it was done, I might not like the hex bolt for aesthetic reasons.

[bssist]

I like the idea. The lighter the better. I do not want locks or hex shaft. When strung as Traeger outlines in his book it takes very little winding to get the string locked and up to pitch. I like the low price point, particularly if they are of decent quality. Matte finish, brass, or black would be best imho.

[mgcasella]

Since a lot of people don't seem to want a hex input on the tuners for fast re-stringing, would it be better to just sell a separate attachment? Such as a peg winder that can be locked into a drill (like the ones made for guitar)?

There is a store near me that sells these but they are made out wood and cost $35 each (?!?!???!!!). I bet I could have a durable plastic one made and sell it MUCH cheaper. What do you all think?

[mgcasella]

Originally Posted by powerbass

Funny you should mention the hex nut for fast tuning because that was one modification I thought about - would be cool if you could easily disengage the 40:1 ratio and switch to a 1:1 for fast stringing. I'm not sure this is a selling feature though. These guys make some cool hardware for EB, they use titanium too http://www.toone-townsend.com

BTW this stuff looks awesome

[skychief]

2. Would this be something you'd buy if you had cash to spare?

No. Not unless my tuners were actually broken.

And I dont think tuner weight should be a criterion when selecting a tuner set for a UB. I mean, we're not really concerned with neck-dive on a UB.

[mgcasella]

Originally Posted by skychief

2. Would this be something you'd buy if you had cash to spare?

No. Not unless my tuners were actually broken.

And I dont think tuner weight should be a criterion when selecting a tuner set for a UB. I mean, we're not really concerned with neck-dive on a UB.

Completely understood and thank you for letting me know :-)

Just to clarify, I originally thought of making the tuners lightweight from noticing how heavy the entire bass was while carrying through parking lots and upstairs to my lessons. I just thought lessening the weight in any way would be useful :P

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by Thumpie

Jake, in your opinion, is saving a little weight really a big deal? I'm thinking about putting some old hat pin tuners on my Kay--for purely aesthetic reasons--but might decide not to if the extra weight might make a sonic difference.

In my opinion, weight is a really big deal. The weight changes the vibrating frequency (ie. note) of the neck and also alters the response characteristics considerably.

Hatpeg tuners with their wooden shafts are usually quite a bit lighter than plate tuners with brass shafts, on the order of 200-300 grams..

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by powerbass

Funny you should mention the hex nut for fast tuning because that was one modification I thought about - would be cool if you could easily disengage the 40:1 ratio and switch to a 1:1 for fast stringing. I'm not sure this is a selling feature though. These guys make some cool hardware for EB, they use titanium too http://www.toone-townsend.com

Seriously, how many times a week do you guys change your DB strings?! I'm willing to bet that we do it more often than you and its really not that big of a deal.

One of these can speed you up if you're in a hurry: http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product...NG_WINDER.html

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

In my opinion, weight is a really big deal. The weight changes the vibrating frequency (ie. note) of the neck and also alters the response characteristics considerably.

Hatpeg tuners with their wooden shafts are usually quite a bit lighter than plate tuners with brass shafts, on the order of 200-300 grams..

Yes, but they're probably a little heavier than the non-plate tuners I currently have on the bass.

[Jake deVilliers]

Here you go. Make me a dozen sets of these tuners with aluminium shafts and lightening holes drilled in the gears!

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by Thumpie

Yes, but they're probably a little heavier than the non-plate tuners I currently have on the bass.

What's 'probably'? Weigh them!

[Thumpie]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

What's 'probably'? Weigh them!

Yes! Science!