6 Bach Cello Suites

[Jeff Schwartz]

I'm late to this discussion, but...

Though I am amazed by Meyer's recording of the Bach suites and enjoy fumbling through them myself (mostly not at pitch, so far...) for both their compositional brilliance and their technical challenges, I did once hear Bertram Turetzky make the same argument as our jnewman, that playing them on bass is stunt-like. I'm not sure I agree, but though it was worth sharing.

[Jeremy Allen]

That is interesting, and perhaps speaks to this division I've noticed in the bass world between pro's who think playing solos is a great thing to do and pro's who think it's a waste of time because that isn't what most bass players will be doing with their musical lives. I had lunch with Homer Mensch once and he expressed disdain for the IU School of Music because "all they do there is teach bassists how to play solos--that's useless!" (I wasn't about to rebut him by pointing out that plenty of IU bassists win orchestral jobs...) In his esteemed opinion (and he has more students placed in orchestras than perhaps anybody), getting a huge sound and learning how to hold down the low end are far more important than spending time learning a solo you'll never perform (or will play once at your recital for your teacher and your parents).

Of course, not all of us want to end up in an orchestra (I know I don't), and I don't see why we shouldn't live up to the potential of our instruments. Ed Barker anchors the BSO bass section AND plays the snot out of the cello suites (at pitch). But I have to admit that when I sit in an orchestra bass section I realize that I would gladly trade the ability to play the cello suites up in thumb position for the ability to produce a huge sound and project and support the ensemble--no, they're not mutually exclusive, but they are for me 'cause there are only so many hours in the day...

[Jeff Schwartz]

Apologies to Neuman for calling him Newman...

I suspect that, since Turetzky has written, commissioned, or premiered a ton of music for solo bass, he'd encourage us to play bass music rather than adaptations, but I'll yield the floor to his students in this matter since I was just eavesdropping on another cat picking his brain before he played a free improv show in Venice (CA) last spring...

[anonymous0726]

This is all like the argument in jazz about being a good soloist on the bass v. being a good rhythm section player. I contend that you have to be able to do both well to be a complete player.

If you can't solo fer sh*t, how can you hope to understand what a soloist needs?

[jneuman]

I agree with Ray. I think it's a matter of priorities in devopment though. You can get work as a Jazz player if you can create decent walking lines, have a good feel and projecting tone, even if you can't solo. I know because I can't solo (that well) and I get work. The reverse is probably not true unless you want to play just Bill Evans type music.

The same holds for the orchestral bassist. However, It is expected of all orchestral musicians, regardless of instrument to be able to play solo material. Everyone has to do it to get a college degree for one thing - Tuba players and percussionists as well as oboists and violinists. It's the way to separate the men from the boys as they say.

What I notice among younger players especially, which is troubling to me, is a move to sacrifice strong orchestral technique for early solo technique - probably to make parents happy. This manifests itself in set-up of the instrument (thin strings and low string height) and bow strokes - lack of solid attack, as well as the early deviation from the 124 fingering system which most people need until they develop more strength to produce a solid tone. Only once the orchestral rep is solid should solo rep become a priority. That's how I would approach it if I were putting together a teaching curriculum, but I'm not so who cares.

Oh yeah, I would also teach the student a firm Jazz Pizz technique and walking line basics as soon as they had the notes under their fingers up to sixth position because they will probably want to play Jazz at some point sooner rather than later. No one every broke it down for me when I was learning and I shyed away from Jazz because of it. I think Jazz Bass basics should be demystified. It isn't rocket science. It's just another standard technique (I'm not talking about advanced jazz and soloing - that's another story) I don't think classical teachers address this enough. Its another way to make money on the bass and should be taught earlier rather than later. Parents don't have the dough for two separate types of teachers. I draw the line at slapping though; My future students will have figure that one out on their own
-Jon

[Pete G]

I'm listening now to Edgar's recording of the Fifth Suite. If what he does in the Prelude isn't the best four minutes of recorded bass playing (on every level -- technique, interpretation, vision, etc.) I've ever heard, I don't know what is.

[Stradosfella]

I second that. I love that suite,and hearing that track is just amazing. All of the 6 suites are just so powerful, its really hard to describe. Amazing works, each and every suite.

[Simandl Fan]

Well, after having learned the First Suite at pitch as well as transposed to C, I'm going to stick with the Sterling. I just like the sound of the suite in C. Most of the notes are centered between C (on the A string) and thumb position G, which in my opinion is the characteristic tessitura for the bass.

But the above posts are right- it's wonderful music that is open to many interpretations. I don't have a problem with changing keys, since the suites were not written for our instrument, as long as none of the pitches are changed. I know Sterling changed lots of things, so it's important to consult the cello part for reference.

[Mike Goodbar]

Yeah, when I'm listening Meyer's recording, I don't really think about what instrument or even which artist I'm listening to; I'm just listening to Bach and absorbing all the beauty and brilliance. This, I think, is Meyer's achievement.

I had the chance to talk to Edgar about playing them, and he said he used the Anna Madgalena notebooks as his source material. He also stated that he has no plans to record the remaining three Suites.

I study the Suites and will consider them a lifelong goal (hell, just master one of the Suites is a lifelong goal for me). Everytime I get them out, I uncover some musical or technical gem that adds a little something to my overall musicianship. In this way, I think they extremely worthwhile to study.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Schwartz

I suspect that, since Turetzky has written, commissioned, or premiered a ton of music for solo bass, he'd encourage us to play bass music rather than adaptations, but I'll yield the floor to his students in this matter since I was just eavesdropping on another cat picking his brain before he played a free improv show in Venice (CA) last spring...

- He gave me a Bach excerpt to practice at one of my lessons with him. He also told me that Bach was "The Guy" and we should all practice it.
His opinions are different about performing it in public, I heard him say that before Edgar Meyer's Bach cd came out.
I'll have to ask him about what he thinks of Edgar's cd which is pretty amazing and hard to fault.
There are some great pieces for the bass esp. after Bert that may be better for performance for those of us who are not Edgar Meyer.

I work on the suites all the time. I use that Bernat edition nobody likes, but it keeps my tenor clef reading solid and it is close enough for practice. I ignore his fingerings, though.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by jneuman

Let me play Devil's advocate and say that playing the suites at cello pitch on an instrument tuned in fourths is a gymnastics excersise at best and a wast of time at worst.

-I find it easier with the the extended reach the various thumb positions give you to work on them at pitch. I am no great classical player by any means but between the diatonic thumb positions and the Petracchi chromatic and Semi-chomatic position most of it lays under the fingers much better.
Not that I can make them sound good, but they are great practice.

[Beto]

What do you think about Gary Karr's Recordings and the sugested tunings???

First Suite in G major up and octave (this is technically the easiest of all the suites).
Second Suite in D minor is also playable up an octave from the cello part.
Third Suite in C Major is better in G major starting on the first harmonic "G".
Fourth Suite in E flat is best in B flat starting on an A string tuned up a half step.
Fifth Suite in C minor is best in D minor starting with the open D combined with the "D" an octave higher.
Sixth Suite play as is in D major but do some octave changes when necessary.

[mcnaire2004]

http://www.wimmercello.com/bachms.html There are the suites in all their glory. Playing them I see that the Robert Rohe edition are way off. And way harder even at pitch.

[anthem274]

I read an article about how Ed Barker transcribes the suites. I believe he said he plays the second in B minor because "[He] feel[s] that [he] can actually play more of the notes in the chords using this key. [His] desire is not so much to imitate a cello -- it's to try to make the best use of the sound of the double bass."

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

http://www.wimmercello.com/bachms.html There are the suites in all their glory. Playing them I see that the Robert Rohe edition are way off. And way harder even at pitch.

That site does mention that the version portrayed, in the hand of Anna Magdalena Bach, is only one of four surviving manuscripts of the suites (none of which are in Bach's own hand, unfortunately). It doesn't mention that hers is considered by most to be the least reliable of the four, and that based on her manuscripts of other of Bach's works for which we also have an autograph manuscript (that is, Bach's own) it is known that she was very careless and sloppy in her copying. Facsimiles of the other three manuscripts are widely available, including in the Barenreiter critical edition I've mentioned before, and well-worth checking out; anyone who wants to see a good idea of what the suites "really are" should check out the Barenreiter, because in addition to the manuscripts it includes a fresh printing of the suites without any articulation markings and with annotations to show the points at which discrepancies appear among the four sources. It's fun to learn them from there and come up with your own ideas of phrasing and articulation...

[Tritonis]

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

Where did you hear he tuned in fifths? Edgar generally keeps his bass in solo tuning, A E B F#.

Isn't that tuning in 5ths?

[anthem274]

That's solo tuning in fourths.

[fcleff]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodbar

Yeah, when I'm listening Meyer's recording, I don't really think about what instrument or even which artist I'm listening to; I'm just listening to Bach and absorbing all the beauty and brilliance. This, I think, is Meyer's achievement.

I study the Suites and will consider them a lifelong goal (hell, just master one of the Suites is a lifelong goal for me). Everytime I get them out, I uncover some musical or technical gem that adds a little something to my overall musicianship. In this way, I think they extremely worthwhile to study.

Man, you took the words right out of my mouth. I may never master one of these suites but what I can play of them is some of my favorite music to play.

I'm really glad that I read this thread. Now I can keep on keepin' on. Thanks fellas.

Originally Posted by Beto

What do you think about Gary Karr's Recordings and the sugested tunings???

First Suite in G major up and octave (this is technically the easiest of all the suites).
Second Suite in D minor is also playable up an octave from the cello part.
Third Suite in C Major is better in G major starting on the first harmonic "G".
Fourth Suite in E flat is best in B flat starting on an A string tuned up a half step.
Fifth Suite in C minor is best in D minor starting with the open D combined with the "D" an octave higher.
Sixth Suite play as is in D major but do some octave changes when necessary.

Stay far, far away from Gary Karr playing Bach.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by p.nemeth

Stay far, far away from Gary Karr playing Bach.

- Maybe you never heard the 2 cd travesty Gerd Reinke released. It seemed to come out right around the time he was on tour in Jeruselum with the Berlin Opera and drunkenly signed his bill "Adolf Hitler". Neither the Israeli's nor the Germans found it amusing and he was fired and subsequently blacklisted, seems only to play in Egypt anymore.
Next all the reviewers panned the Bach cd. I bought it on Ebay for $10 to see if the reviews were knee jerk or not.
They were not even close to how shi**y it is. It is tough to illistrate just how poor it is without swearing.