Bach Suite 1 - questions from Hillwilliam country

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This could be a novella, but I'll try to keep it short. I've been working on the first suite from the cello score in G (pizzicato...let the games begin! ), playing it as written and sounding down an octave from the cello realization. As an ignorant unwashed jazzer, I'm not sure if this is a common range to play it in, but I love the music and it's great intonation/technique practice and I'm going to stick with this approach for now. When it's ready, I want to record it, mostly for the hell of it, but also to critique the results from the listener's chair and hopefully learn something.

If anyone plays it in this register, a couple of questions:

1) What do you generally do when a note below open E is scored and you don't have an extension? I usually end up trying to find a way to transpose those passages in as musical a way as possible, but was wondering what others do.

2) Some of the triple stops seem very ergonomic for the cello, but not so much so for the bass. What are some of the ways that bassists who play the suite deal with this?

3) How do others finger the last 4 bars of the prelude, and what can be done about that last triple stop? I'm playing it as a double stop at the moment, but even when I get it in tune, it still seems unsatisfying.

Thanks in advance.

[dchan]

I don't really know how to play the guitar - I simply play it for fun. And since I already know how to play the bass, I only play the lowest four strings. And since my knowledge of any fretted instrument is spotty at best (the frets all look the same to me), I stick with the lower registers. So my knowledge from that standpoint can help.

So whenever I play Cello Suite number 1 for fun on the guitar, I go with drop D tuning - the E string goes down a whole step to a D. I've been using that tuning on my doublebass, so it felt pretty natural on the guitar. I can't play the low C's, so I transpose up for that. But I can play the low D - it's good for that passage in the Prelude after the high D.

For the triple stops - I use the same technique I learned playing the Cello Suites on the doublebass (at pitch, mind you): first play the lower two notes as a double-stop, and then play the highest note afterwards. As I said, I'm not a guitar player, so one of the things I don't know how to do is play chords with more than two notes. The method I describe sounds okay on a guitar; not so sure how it would sound on the doublebass.

[sean p]

chris - playing the suites tuned in fifths works well. i too play it down in the lowest register of the bass and love it there. it has become a lot easier since tuning CGDA. don't know what to tell you about trying to get those low notes. i don't like the way it sounds to take them up an octave - the direction of the line changes too much for my taste. i was trying detuning the E string, but ended up trying fifths and liked it so well it stuck.

sean p

[EggyToast]

Not every day you get to do this to an admin, but in the search...

Looking for all six Bach suites for bass

There was quite a bit of discussion on how to play it, including that many people just played it up in the cello range or did alternative tunings. I asked the same question as you did, since I don't have an extension on my bass.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

1) What do you generally do when a note below open E is scored and you don't have an extension? I usually end up trying to find a way to transpose those passages in as musical a way as possible, but was wondering what others do.

The convention as I understand it is to bring those low notes up an octave, including the phrase where those notes sit so the phrase doesn't sound like it has a "hiccup".

2) Some of the triple stops seem very ergonomic for the cello, but not so much so for the bass. What are some of the ways that bassists who play the suite deal with this?

The Sterling edition probably has all your answers there. Likely he drops notes where they seem unreachable. I don't have that one though, I've got the Rabbath edition. He keeps that suite at pitch, so most of it lays in thumb position and remains accessible.

Like the post above says, 5ths tuning makes this suite super convenient on the fingerboard...especially at pitch. But I don't think there's any shame for you to edit your version as you see fit, transposing it in any key you like and dropping (or even adding) notes for the chords that you would like.

Edgar Meyer recorded his in solo tuning, as did Jeff Bradetich.

3) How do others finger the last 4 bars of the prelude, and what can be done about that last triple stop? I'm playing it as a double stop at the moment, but even when I get it in tune, it still seems unsatisfying.

I'd finger all of them and avoid open notes...then keep at it till they started sounding sweet to me.

My $0.02. I've been working on this tune off and on for a couple of years and it's still a lot of fun.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks, fellas. I've been pretty much doing as suggested (except for the fifths tuning) and displacing lines that go too low until it makes sense to move them back into the actual register. It sounds okay, but the ending is a bear.

Originally Posted by Johnny L

I'd finger all of them and avoid open notes...then keep at it till they started sounding sweet to me.

I like the open D in this passage, but the notes around it form a very awkward shape. I won't quit working on it for sure, but it sure is a risky fingering for the climactic end of a piece!

[Mark Perna]

This is one of my all-time favorite pieces for bass. In addition to being a great piece of music, it can double as a great intonation exercise. I like playing it in both thumb and down an octave. It is my go-to piece to play whenever I feel like my thumb intonation is getting dodgy and could use a tune-up. With all of the chord tones playing off of each other and with the very frequent open G, it is super easy to hear pitch.

As for the last four bars, I use open D. The shapes are a little odd (particularly bar 3 from the end) but not too bad once you play them for a while. The last bar I play as a double stop and then tap the low G with the side of my right forefinger. Not very authentic but I'm also playing it pizz so I'm out of that running anyway.

Interestingly, I've started messing with the bow again and have given this one a go arco and have discovered that many of my left hand pizz fingerings don't work all that well with the bow.

mark

[Ed Fuqua]

Anybody played the Bernat transcriptions?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by calivox

Interestingly, I've started messing with the bow again and have given this one a go arco and have discovered that many of my left hand pizz fingerings don't work all that well with the bow.

Good to know I'm not the only one playing this, and that you've discovered the same thing about some of the fingerings between arco and pizz. I have a theory about it, but want to play around with the music some more before trying to articulate.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by calivox

As for the last four bars, I use open D. The shapes are a little odd (particularly bar 3 from the end) but not too bad once you play them for a while. The last bar I play as a double stop and then tap the low G with the side of my right forefinger. Not very authentic but I'm also playing it pizz so I'm out of that running anyway.

Yeah for the cello, that low G is an open string and gets to ring a little at the end.

I've always thought of the prelude as Bach's own attempt at the Coltrane sheets-of-sound thing with the cello.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Anybody played the Bernat transcriptions?

I used to use them but then British Airways lost my bag, I am using the Fournier 'cello version and I like it much better.

I'll go ahead and state the obvious: Pizz only not a great plan for practice of the instrument, even if your goal is to perform it pizzcato it is a good plan to be able to get through it arco and practice it arco regardless of the fingering choices you make.
There, now it has been said!

[Johnny L]

I would also add that it's wise to practice those suites pizz style under shelter when a thunderstorm approaches.

You never know if Bach is listening.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm finding that the pizz practice of these pieces is really pushing me toward toning up some of my left hand technique, especially as regards articulation of legato phrasing, and in dealing with the ends of notes that are not connected. While I'm sure my soul will be damned to eternal hell, I think it'll also help my pizz playing a lot.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I'm finding that the pizz practice of these pieces is really pushing me toward toning up some of my left hand technique, especially as regards articulation of legato phrasing, and in dealing with the ends of notes that are not connected. While I'm sure my soul will be damned to eternal hell, I think it'll also help my pizz playing a lot.

Well, from the clips I've heard your pizz playing doesn't need any help.
You never know about having your soul dammed, Bach wrote for god!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Fair enough, and thanks. As for the rest, I'm sure I'll find out about that in a few years. Seriously though, if Bach decides to damn me for my renditions of his music, it'll be for my awful butcherings of his keyboard music on the piano. He'd probably welcome the respite from that more than enough to overlook any little transgressions I'm committing on the bass.

[damonsmith]

It is just kind of stubborn and a big waste of time in terms of practice. What I would have to say is anyone who can make a real musical statement with that music pizz would have to know it inside and out and that means arco.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

It is just kind of stubborn and a big waste of time in terms of practice.

While it's nice of you to say that my pizz playing doesn't need any help, to my ears there's a whole world of improvement and refinement I can make in that area. Stubborn, I'll definitely cop to. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the big waste of time part.

Back closer to the topic, some things are coming together as regards the triple stops. Some of them work nicely as double stops, some can be played as triple stops, and in some cases other solutions need to be found. What I'm really enjoying, especially in the Allemande, Minuet, and Gigue, is the articulation work out. I've been a fan of the Starker recordings of the suites for 20 years. If anybody has any recommendations for other recorded versions to check out (I also have Edgar's recordings) for contrast, that would be great - especially if they can be had on emusic.

[damonsmith]

I like Rostropovich's recordings. As far I know only 2 and 5 are on emusic.

[neal davis]

I used to like playing it in C as well, it was good work for playing around the break and transitions into thumb. and you get all the low notes

[quenoil]

I love Pieter Wispelwey's recording of the suites - I think its on emusic. Lots of other stuff on that label (Channel Classics) is I think.