Beethoven Bass lines

[bejoyous]

I was recently playing through some Beethoven symphonies. I noticed that there is no consistancy with his lower-than-E notes. Comparing the Zimmerman book parts to the score there are even more unusual things. I'm sure some of you folks have noticed this as well.

Does anyone know of a scholarly paper or know why this is so? Was the copyist lazy? Did an apprentice do the typesetting? Did Dragonetti advise Mr. B?

Thanks

[kontrabass]

Don't quote me unless I happen to be right, but I think this is commonly found in Brahms' symphonies, too.

A few guys and/or gals have mentioned here that because contranotes were not commonly available back in the day (The first 5 string orchestral bass was made in 1880 and didn't become "popular" until much later), composer's may have given the basses the note either an octave higher or a different note in the chord. I know that some principals advocate doubling the cellos (an octave lower, utlizilizing the extension or 5th string) instead of what is written. How they decide which notes to double, I have no idea.

I hope this is what you are asking and that others will chime in.

Alex

[bejoyous]

To clarify what I mean. If you look at Symphony #3 you'll see that sometimes the cello and bass parts are each shown on a seperate staff so that the bass will play notes at the same sounding octave as the cellos, then in the development there are the arpeggios that start on the low C then Db, D, Eb and so on.

[bierbass]

The 3rd Sym. is really the first Beeth. Sym. where the bass line has independence from the cello. As to the section you refer to in your 2nd post, I'm not sure what you are refering to as inconsistant. Mr. B didn't really make to many mistakes because he painstakingly revised his music prior to publication. Mr. Zimmerman on the other hand used parts that are suspiciously similar to Kalmus parts which were generally taken from the 1st published editions which usually are notoriously bad because of the mistakes made by the engravers.

[TomGale]

Classical period meant the bass doubled the cello part to give it depth.
When the part went below E, it went up an octave until convenient to go back to the original pitch without regard to the musical phrase. Bummer.
I went to a D, A, d, g, tuning that took care of most of the examples and ,upon occasion, had to add a low C to take care of it. Check the cello part and don't take the Zimmerman book as gospel.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[kontrabass]

Originally Posted by TomGale

Classical period meant the bass doubled the cello part to give it depth.
When the part went below E, it went up an octave until convenient to go back to the original pitch without regard to the musical phrase. Bummer.
I went to a D, A, d, g, tuning that took care of most of the examples and ,upon occasion, had to add a low C to take care of it. Check the cello part and don't take the Zimmerman book as gospel.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

Tom,
Do you find that conductors are open to changing the score by playing the contranotes instead of what was written? How do you decide which notes to take to the lower octave? Surely not every occurance, or the extension would get quite a bit of playing time.

Alex

[bierbass]

Alex,

Sorry I'm not Tom, but yes conductors will be open to taking notes an octave lower if it isn't taking too many liberties. For example in Brahms, it is acceptable to take things down if we are otherwise in unison with the cello and we are maintaining the unison. It happens often that the bass part, which was published seperately from the cello, will jump an octave for no other apparent reason other than the notes went below E. In your question about Beethoven it wasn't really clear what notes you were referring to. In Beethoven if its specified up an octave in the part, then it was probably meant to be up. Publishers don't like to waste ink. That said many conductors probably won't mind, not that some would even notice.

One more thing, I've been in sections where guys just randomly played down just cause they could. That gets old fast. Its not always in the best taste.

[TomGale]

Hi Alex,
I'm Tom. The "phrase will tell all". You can hear what that phrase is doing and going. And you can hear when some idiot wrote part of the phrase 8va and the rest as written. Most conductors never notice...
Tom

[TomGale]

Speaking of conductors - At one time I was stuck with an idiot for 5 or 6 seasons. Once, we were playing a great piece - Brahms, I think.
Really pretty lines in 8vas w/cello and I was tuned D A d g for the concert. Suddenly, the phrase dropped down to a low Eb, D, Eb and back up. You're playing this great line and suddenly those three notes jump an octave and then back to the octaves.
During a break, I happened to mention to the conductor (?) if those would sound better down and the idiot say, "What do you care! You can't play those notes anyway!"
What my comments were about his knowledge of bass playing was, I can't even put on the net without Homeland Security checking me out.
Needless to say, that was the last time we ever spoke.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
PS I was still there when he got canned... hahahaha

[cpete430]

I played Beethoven 3 last year as well, and I just put the one phrase the octave higher, and yeah, it sounds a bit out of context, but it's better than putting just the notes out of range an octave higher e.g. when a descending line to Eb suddenly jumps the octave it just sounds dumb and loses all the character of the run. Otherwise just get a bass extension, haha

[TomGale]

Give the D A d g tuning a try when you need some low Ds and Ebs. It's easy to learn because it just mirrors the d down an octave.
TG

[EFischer1]

Originally Posted by TomGale

Classical period meant the bass doubled the cello part to give it depth.

Not to cause a ruckus, but this may not be applicable to Beethoven 3, as it is arguably a romantic symphony.

[bejoyous]

Hi Tom;

I use low-D tuning now all the time. It took some getting used to but I have found it has improved the sound of my bass as well. I added on a small extension to get the low-C (this is shown on page 4 of the Setup & Repair forum Alternate Extension Solution )

Thought you'd be interested.

As for the Beethoven thing, I usually go with the musical line as well. I was just confused as to why the printed music is sometimes changed to accomidate an E string and then sometimes goes down below low-E.

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by EFischer1

Not to cause a ruckus, but this may not be applicable to Beethoven 3, as it is arguably a romantic symphony.

Beethoven's first is right out of the classical style and gradually he took us to through early romantic period by the time he finished. The scoring of the 3rd has hints of the early romantic period but still has all the characteristics of the classical period - in which he learned his trade.
Tom Gale
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