A better understanding of what it is, we do, as bassists?

x15 · #1 02-01-2010, 01:14 PM

Hello,

This is a pretty ambiguous question and i'm pretty sure it will get bounced a lot, but i'm still looking for some kind of help, because this is something that's really been on my mind for a long time..

i've really had a confused beginning, as far as bass is concerned, i've never had a teacher here in delhi and i feel like my development has all been disproportionate..

i've been playing the double bass and jazz for about a year and a half now - and the electric bass for about 5 years or so..

i'm trying to figure out what exactly our job is.. i can walk a line decently, i can swing it and i can read a chart properly, but sometimes i wonder how playing 'music' or bass lines, really work.

i've started playing the keyboard/piano over the past couple of months and i find that my understanding of music and the relation between chords and melody has really deepened.. so technically, is our job really to be the left hand of the piano?

if a guitar player or saxophonist plays a melody out, should we automatically know what to play with it - or how to voice it - on the go? or is this something that takes a lot of time..
i can write chords to a melody, but i don't know if i can think of them on the go..

this is a really vague question, i know, but i'd still like some help !

JtheJazzMan · #2 02-01-2010, 02:22 PM

Find your own way. I think its better that you dont know what your "supposed" to do.

The first 5-7 years of me playing bass were relative isolation, so naturally ended up making music on my own on the bass. I never learned "my place" in a band.

Dont feel that you have to fill a certain role, in the end it will liberate you. Thats a tough answer because now you have to spend the next few years searching for what you want to achieve.

Pat Harris · #3 02-01-2010, 04:51 PM

I think the role of the bass is dictated by the music you are playing. Sometimes the role you need to play is more evident than others. The best way to figure out the role of the bass is really just to listen to lots and lots of DIFFERENT music. In jazz alone, there is the "typical" functional role, but there are also many different aesthetics within that. It's good to have a reference point. Are you going for a PC sound? Ron Carter? Scott LaFaro w/Bill Evans?

In my opinion, there are two things you should *always* do as a bassist: Play in time and play in tune.

Rebmo · #4 02-01-2010, 05:29 PM

Foundation

x15 · #5 02-02-2010, 02:06 AM

thanks guys.. i really do appreciate the answers.. i guess it will just take some time to figure out.. i think my ears need a lot more training.. i feel annoyed sometimes, when i hear a melody being played, and i just can't think of how to harmonize it, and then i wonder what i'm doing with the instrument in the first place.. i've been Really lucky to play with musicians who've been playing eight to ten to fifteen years longer than me.. its a really rewarding experience in terms of growth.. but it has its rough moments..

its just a phase, i hope : )

thanks again

Bruce Lindfield · #6 02-02-2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x15

Hello,

This is a pretty ambiguous question and i'm pretty sure it will get bounced a lot, but i'm still looking for some kind of help, because this is something that's really been on my mind for a long time..

i've really had a confused beginning, as far as bass is concerned, i've never had a teacher here in delhi and i feel like my development has all been disproportionate..

i've been playing the double bass and jazz for about a year and a half now - and the electric bass for about 5 years or so..

i'm trying to figure out what exactly our job is.. i can walk a line decently, i can swing it and i can read a chart properly, but sometimes i wonder how playing 'music' or bass lines, really work.

i've started playing the keyboard/piano over the past couple of months and i find that my understanding of music and the relation between chords and melody has really deepened.. !

Well if you are talking about Jazz - then it is pretty clear what you are supposed to do and you can hear it on thousands of Jazz recordings by the greatest ever players!

You can also read many books on Jazz and by Jazz bassists.

I would say, there is an easy answer to your question and a much longer one!

The easy answer is that as a Jazz bass player you are outlining the chord structure of the tune you are playing and providing the band with forward momentum!

Of course there is more and that will take a lot more words than I am going to write on an internet forum - but if you haven't got that first part down, there is no point in going any further...?

bassist1962 · #7 02-02-2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I would say, there is an easy answer to your question and a much longer one!

The easy answer is that as a Jazz bass player you are outlining the chord structure of the tune you are playing and providing the band with forward momentum!

Of course there is more and that will take a lot more words than I am going to write on an internet forum - but if you haven't got that first part down, there is no point in going any further...?

+1000

Paul Warburton · #8 02-02-2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

I think the role of the bass is dictated by the music you are playing. Sometimes the role you need to play is more evident than others. The best way to figure out the role of the bass is really just to listen to lots and lots of DIFFERENT music. In jazz alone, there is the "typical" functional role, but there are also many different aesthetics within that. It's good to have a reference point. Are you going for a PC sound? Ron Carter? Scott LaFaro w/Bill Evans?

Yes, and what jazz bassists do you like to listen to? You do listen alot, don't you?
Find a couple of bassists that kind of ring your musical bell and try to copy what they do. (IMO). Then try to do that. Play along with their recordings....try to play like they do and then....IMO, something good will happen. Copy their sound, their time playing and their musical intention.
Wash, rinse and repeat..........IMO.

DeluxeRed · #9 02-02-2010, 09:06 AM

In the genres where the bass can play a prominent part, such as jazz or rock, I think above all what the bass does is set the mood of the song. Bright and swingy? Dark and brooding? Happy or sad or joyous or mournful, the bass controls that emotional content.

It does that because it is the center of the group. It joins the melodic elements with the rhythmic elements. It provides the harmonic stabilization of the chord structure. How it is played relative to the beat sets the pace, ahead and pushing or behind and dragging. It allows other instruments to show their soul by drifting from the root and beat, providing a home around which they can range.

There's a lot of ways that is accomplished. Tone and timbre, technique, style, all of those elements come into play. Imagine the difference between a slow, smoky, jazzy glissando highlighting the "minor-ness" of a chord change on a stand-up bass, compared to a fast, fuzzed, picked punk-metal bass line--both from virtually the same instrument. Supporting melodic elements as diverse as saxophones and rock guitars, holding it together in music that is just as diverse as well.

Gads, I love bass!

Paul Warburton · #10 02-02-2010, 09:23 AM

Hee, hee....he said "stand-up bass".

DeluxeRed · #11 02-02-2010, 09:31 AM

Yeah, well, I thought about that, and "AUB" just didn't seem to have the same rhetorical value or paint the same expressive picture with words as I managed to accomplish. "AUB" just doesn't say "smoke and whisky" to me...

Paul Warburton · #12 02-02-2010, 09:53 AM

I can dig it.

gprigge · #13 02-02-2010, 01:11 PM

DeluxeRed nailed it, along with the foundation comment. I figure it's "just bass" until I hear what happens when I screw up at a jam.

x15 · #14 02-02-2010, 01:59 PM

again, thank you all for the wisdom.. you're right, i really need to have the 'first part' down really well.. i think in a way, it's funny because it's everybody's own personal experience..

what i was also asking, was what goes through 'your' mind when you play the instrument.. i know i'm just piling on vaguer and broader questions.. but are you looking at a page and playing accordingly.. or are you hearing tones in your head..
that's the part that throws me off most i guess..

hypothetical question: how many of you would be able to just play an impromptu duet with another musician? without any sheet music etc.. only by ear and following the other musicians lead.. would you be able to support through anticipation or at some point would you need to just go.. "what are you playing there.."..

i feel that because it's music, somewhere, it really boils down to how well you can listen/hear and respond.. and sometimes i worry i rely on words too much..

Chris Symer · #15 02-02-2010, 02:24 PM

Hope this metaphor will make sense, but it sometimes seems like mountain climbing and I usually feel like the guy who is supposed to hold the rope. The lead climber (soloist) is out there fairly exposed and trying to do something difficult and possibly career ending (in their mind anyway) if it goes wrong. As the person holding the rope, I'm supposed to be giving them the security they need so they know they are safe and it's alright to go for it. If I am not there constantly to say "It's alright, I've got you..." nobody is going to want to climb with me. Nobody wants to look back and see their belay person off by themselves trying to look good.

So first it's my job to establish trust with the rest of the band. I want to know what somebody needs ( a clear downbeat..here's the four chord dummy.. no, the bridge is HERE!. That kind of thing.) and give it to them. Clearly. I want to help where I can and stay the **** out of the way where I can't. If it's a good gig, I'm going to get the same sense of safety back from them and everything is going to feel easy. Then things can open up a lot and we can all support each other all the time. I like that best, cuz' I'm actually a bit afraid of heights otherwise.

Paul Warburton · #16 02-02-2010, 03:38 PM

+1 and stickyworthy.

x15 · #17 02-02-2010, 08:14 PM

Bruce Lindfield · #18 02-03-2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x15

what i was also asking, was what goes through 'your' mind when you play the instrument.. i know i'm just piling on vaguer and broader questions.. but are you looking at a page and playing accordingly.. or are you hearing tones in your head..

I have been to many Jazz workshops over the last 10 years , often with people fairly new to Jazz and those who are getting lost and playing lame-sounding solos - are nearly always those who are staring fixedly at some printed thing in front of them!!

The best tutors I have come across, always say - no looking at music, let's just play something by ear or something simple - and then the same people who were screwing up when staring at something, invariably play better!

In Jazz - you just don't have time to be reading all the way. OK - a new tune, you look at the chart and then memorise it as soon as you can, but all the time you are looking at the music, you are not giving your full concentration to playing and listening to others, supporting and responding to the situation!

Quote:

hypothetical question: how many of you would be able to just play an impromptu duet with another musician? without any sheet music etc.. only by ear and following the other musicians lead.. would you be able to support through anticipation or at some point would you need to just go.. "what are you playing there.."..

I really enjoy doing this and I think most Jazz pros love it! So - last year at Jazz Summerschool, I met loads of different people and the first night at the evening Jazz club, I played with a Slovenian Trumpet Player, and 2 youngsters on Trumpet and Drums - so we were a quartet and just played with no music or prior discussion - it was great!

That was in a sense - "Free Jazz" - or do you mean, playing a tune you have never heard before, by ear, instantly on stage with no music - that might be a bit trickier!!

DeluxeRed · #19 02-03-2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x15

...what i was also asking, was what goes through 'your' mind when you play the instrument...that's the part that throws me off most i guess...

I think maybe what you're beginning to experience is that bifurcation of knowledge between "explicit" and "implicit" that occurs as you practice and train a particular, usually physical, skill set. This is very similar to how you learn most skill sports, such as tennis or golf, and there is a lot of research in sports medicine regarding this. I'll spare you the physiological aspects, but it is basically hardwired.

The basic idea is that you have explicit knowledge, that is, knowledge and skill that occurs because you are specifically focusing on that task, as well as implicit knowledge, that is, skills you can use without specifically thinking about them, sometimes referred to as "muscle memory". The learning process is first an explicit understanding, then implicit skills can be trained through repetition. So, as you learn on the bass--a style, a song--you begin with working through the song, either reading or listening and playing along. As you drill on the song, your implicit knowledge starts to build, to the point you "know" the song and don't have to read the chart or focus on the note-by-note task of fingering or plucking or whatever. (It works on many levels, from small skills like fingering or plucking to larger levels like learning songs or getting comfortable switching from upright to electric, etc.)

After a point, you're not really "paying attention" to what you are playing that moment: in the eyes and out the fingers. That is your implicit skills taking over and doing the job "for you", and why it can be hard to pick-up in the middle of a song, where you might have to sing a bit of it in your head to get to where you want to start playing: because the knowledge of the song is on that different level, and your explicit thought process of "Let's start playing at the 3rd line in the verse" does not have direct access to the knowledge of how to actually play that line, and has to go get it.

And that's how you can get into trouble when you do start explicitly thinking about what you're playing, and you suddenly go Oh cripes! Are we in the 3rd verse or 4th? Your implicit knowledge knew exactly where you were, and you would have been fine if you hadn't interfered with that by trying to use explicit knowledge for something you do implicitly--what is known as a "choke" in sports parlance.

My mind tends to wander a bit, thinking about where I am in the set, what song is next, the next pedal change, am I tangled up in cords. I try to stay focused on the show, and how that's going, and let my "hands" play the songs.

That's also why a great performance often looks effortless: it came from that implicit knowledge without a lot of conscious effort.

There's more about this on the interweb. Learning how you learn helps you learn other things.

bassist1962 · #20 02-03-2010, 05:08 PM

People have come up to me and asked me to show them what I did on this particular song. I have no idea what to show them except the basics because beyond that everything is improvisation, even as an ensemble player. The music, the groove, the way others are playing, how I personally feel, all go into what I play beyond the basics of the song as it originally sits.