Bottesini 2??? Impressive??? Pshh

[Steve Metcalf]

Ok, so you might be wondering what this thread is about. It's about the Bottesini 2 being impressive...

Well, I just had a lesson with Craig Brown (Of the North Carolina Symphony) if you know him, you know he's a hard ass, but he said something in my lesson I was wondering you all agree with; I guess to a certain extent, but anyway. This is a direct quote "Your candenza is all over the map." I replied that I was only trying to be impressive. He replies, "Steve...think again. You play the bass. There is no impressive. Violin players and cello players eat this stuff for breakfast. If anything, make it interesting."
Ok, well, I agree with the interesting part, but I DO believe you can be impressive on the double bass. I just wanted to see what you guys thought.

[Jazz Ad]

I agree completely with your teacher.
If I was trying to be impressive I'd probably choose another instrument.

[Alex Scott]

Playing musical is impressive, no one else cares about your fingers.

[Chasarms]

Originally Posted by Alex Scott

Playing musical is impressive, no one else cares about your fingers.

Yup.

[Mike Goodbar]

When I started playing bass (in high school), my piano teacher announced to me that the only real acceptable solo instruments were the (of course) piano, the violin and perhaps the cello.

From the standpoint of the classical audience, he's probably right. It will take a lot of work to bring the bass up the to level of acceptance of the piano or fiddle. But, as Mr. Scott points out, real musicianship will win out the audience, regardless of instrument. When I saw Edgar Meyer play Bott. 2with the Milwaukee Symphony, there were audible gasps from the audience, and they were on their feet practically before the last note. Granted, a large portion of the audience was bass players (Richard Davis was seated two rows behind me!), but apparently, even the old timers and subscribers heard a lot more than they expected.

On my own behalf, I'm happy being an unimpressive, workhorse bass player. I'm only a world-class soloist in my practice room!

[jsbachsonata]

With the "no impressive" mentality how is any bass player going to extend the bass technique further. Like what rabbath always says: if you try you will keep on trying for the rest of your life. The thought of just trying will make you fail. The thought that the bass can never be impressive will make you play as if this were a fact.

I am not sure about this but in seems like in the US there is a big focus on orchestral material. Thus, there might be the mentaility that bass players are boxed in to some limits in terms of solos. Here in Taiwan, learning the bass is all about playing solo pieces and I have never played an orchestral excerpt ever (unless i am playing in the orchestra). Thus, many teachers and players in taiwan equate a good soloist with a good orchestral player. The focus on extending bass technique and learning to play it just as a violin would learn to play its piece through solo pieces (violinists never learn orchestral excerpts from my experience).

Don't be bogged down by what your teacher says. If you want to be impressive, do so, but make sure that you leave no room for your teacher's criticism by mastering the technique. Then, convince him of your "impressive" interpretation. Listen to his feedback on how you can improve your interpretation, but don't listen to him when he says the bass cannot be impressive. That is just a load of bs.

[mcnaire2004]

Well, I agree 100% with your teacher. Stuff that is at the top of the bass repitiore wouldn't compete one bit with anything of a violinist. Or maybe not even a cellist. People like Edgar Meyer can make things impresive but they just play that way. If you wrote Bottesini No. 2 like it is up a octave (maybe 2) to get in violin range for them to play it would be a piece of cake. If we are impresive it is comparitivly to their rep...

[dansolobass]

I have to disagree with most of you since it has been my experience playing for many audiences that it takes very little to impress an audience playing the bass. The thing we have going for us is the great amount of distance we must cover on the fingerboard to do what we do. Most people, even non musicians, are very sensitive to that fact. The visual aspect of the performance is extremely entertaining and impressive, more so than most other instruments. At least this is what I’ve been told time after time. Playing for bass players is different since they know most of the tricks, but if we’re playing for any other instrumentalists, vocalists, or music lovers who aren’t aware of what the bass can actually do, it’s always a breeze to get a roaring applause. I’m surprised other bass players wouldn’t agree.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by dansolobass

I have to disagree with most of you since it has been my experience playing for many audiences that it takes very little to impress an audience playing the bass. The thing we have going for us is the great amount of distance we must cover on the fingerboard to do what we do. Most people, even non musicians, are very sensitive to that fact. The visual aspect of the performance is extremely entertaining and impressive, more so than most other instruments. At least this is what I?ve been told time after time. Playing for bass players is different since they know most of the tricks, but if we?re playing for any other instrumentalists, vocalists, or music lovers who aren?t aware of what the bass can actually do, it?s always a breeze to get a roaring applause. I?m surprised other bass players wouldn?t agree.

I guess to that aspect I 100% agree. Some of our music is impresive through sheer musicality but through technicality it's realy not. "they eat this for breakfast"

[Chasarms]

So is argument developing here that technical difficulty necessarily equates to impressiveness?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by Chasarms

So is argument developing here that technical difficulty necessarily equates to impressiveness?

I believe the opposite. You can impress with very little technique, expecially on a double bass.
I prefer to make my playing look effortless, even if it isn't.

[Dave Whitla]

A lot depends on how you view the term "impressive". My interpretation in this context would be having more show than musical substance. For me, it would be much more important to develop your sense of musicianship, and in that way I would agree with your teacher. I doubt that he's telling you that you don't need to be technically solid, through and through.

I've heard performances on violins, cellos, etc. that were "impressive" (note perfect or whatever) but boring. I've heard great music on those instruments AND on the bass that I would also consider "impressive". The problem as I see it isn't that you were trying to be impressive, but rather that you were "all over the map".

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Originally Posted by jsbachsonata

With the "no impressive" mentality how is any bass player going to extend the bass technique further. Like what rabbath always says: if you try you will keep on trying for the rest of your life. The thought of just trying will make you fail. The thought that the bass can never be impressive will make you play as if this were a fact.

I am not sure about this but in seems like in the US there is a big focus on orchestral material. Thus, there might be the mentaility that bass players are boxed in to some limits in terms of solos. Here in Taiwan, learning the bass is all about playing solo pieces and I have never played an orchestral excerpt ever (unless i am playing in the orchestra). Thus, many teachers and players in taiwan equate a good soloist with a good orchestral player. The focus on extending bass technique and learning to play it just as a violin would learn to play its piece through solo pieces (violinists never learn orchestral excerpts from my experience).

Yeah, I must admit to being a little confused many years ago in high school when my teacher would show me orchestral parts which I was able to play. Play a Bottesini concerto to audition for a gig where you mostly play stuff not beyond a high school kid who ain't been playing that long

[tappingtrance]

I think your teacher has done you a disservice - we are talking music here and creating a moment [in this case a cadenza] for yourself and the audience - it need not be fast, technically challenging nor all over the physical landscape [although watching Edgar Meyer, Rabbath, Edwin Barker et. al. it can be].
Create something honest. continue to push against your own personal barriers and take your audience somewhere, surprise them, challenge their ears and you will do fine, oh yeah and get a new teacher.

[damonsmith]

I think the bass can be impressive, but we are just starting to find out all the ways.
I have seen plenty of concerts where the bass player shines more than any one else.
Musicians Like Stefano Scodanibbio, Barry Guy, Peter Kowald, Mark Dresser, Joëlle Léandre -they not limited by the instrument and can act on an equal footing with other instrumentalists.
To get to higher levels of virtuosity we need to use more of our body than other string players, once we get more control of those resources in many ways we have the advantage.

[Sevitzky]

Damon, some serious musicians listed there. I second your opinion.



I don't know the person who made the original statement, and I wasn't in the room. But for arguement's sake let's address *just the statement*:

"Your candenza is all over the map."

Reminds me of the typically inarticulate statements made by students in a bass-rep class. All over the map? What does that mean? Does he mean you're drawing stylistically from romantic and baroque and it isn't 'compelling'? Does he mean you're using the full palatte of timbre's, pitches, and dynamics that your instrument offers, which, by principle, he takes offense towards? Too many tempo's? Your bow is out of control? Does he mean that he is threatened by the fact that you are maybe playing some really high notes? And that... they are... in tune?



In my polemical opinion:
I think it's a good exercise to write a cadenza that reflects restraint and respect to stylistic idioms. (All romantic, all classical, etc)
I also think it's a good excercise to write a cadenza that reflects the fact that it is 2007 and you are living in the 21st century (post John Cage), and we don't have to dance for the king or duke anymore.
I also think it's valuable to have a (safe) cadenza in your pocket just in case you there are backward-thinking bass players in auditions, convinced that they have been selected to defend tradition from the philistines.
Take your cadenza to an educated musician and get a musical opinion, not just an instrumental one. Unless you're an experienced composer, you could probably gain a lot from that sort of input. But it has to be educated input.



"Steve...think again. You play the bass. There is no impressive. Violin players and cello players eat this stuff for breakfast. If anything, make it interesting."

Hm, this almost sounds like bait to me. It makes me sad to see bassists who have sour-musical-grapes syndrome. They see someone whose playing intimidates them, and then says, "That's not *real* bass playing."

There was time in middle earth when bass players all smoked dope, played like monkeys, hit on the cute violinists with boyfriends, didn't shower, and were damn proud of it.

But times are changing: we don't have to play like monkeys anymore. (the rest we can keep)
The notion that impressive playing has to be fast and high is, so like, totally 19th century, dudes.
What happens to Edgar when his playing gets below the octave harmonics, and slower than 16th notes - BAM! TRAINWRECK! it becomes unimpressive?

Sev

[Dave Whitla]

I'm assuming he's referring to the cadenza in the first movement, which is already written out, by Bottesini.

Playing devil's advocate here, when his teacher says he's all over the map, I suspect that he's talking mainly about intonation and rhythm. Yes, it's a cadenza, but the phrases have to make some sort of sense relative to one another.

As to playing "stuff not beyond a high school kid who ain't been playing that long", the percentage of players who can actually achieve that with perfect intonation and good time is still quite small, unfortunately. Especially on an audition.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Dave Whitla

As to playing "stuff not beyond a high school kid who ain't been playing that long", the percentage of players who can actually achieve that with perfect intonation and good time is still quite small, unfortunately. Especially on an audition.

-Luckily, the bass has tons and tons of other exciting features besides pure intonation. Not that any of us should stop chasing that dream.

[PsionAxis]

I disagree with the instructor in this case, I have seen many solo Contrabassists that are extremely impressive, two of which are Jeremy McCoy and Milton Masciadri.

[Dave Whitla]

Just to point out that everyone cited here as 'impressive' (Edgar, Jeremy McCoy et al) would also be examples of guys who "eat this stuff for breakfast"...