Celtic and Old Time Fiddle Tunes on the DB

[LeslieD]

At one point I learned a couple fiddle tunes on the DB, but mostly just jigs and simple reels. Does anyone else out there play tunes like this on the DB? At local folk jams I usually just play rhythm, but I get jealous of the other musicians ' ability to play the melody line. My ability to learn the tunes and play by ear isn't great (and there are a zillion different tunes). The tunes I've learned, I've painfully transcribed note by note into some sort of computer program...since I can't do it in my head.

A few questions for you TB DB folks:
1) are there DB folks who can read treble clef and transpose it on the fly (into bass clef, and perhaps into other keys)? And how do the heck do you do it?

2) do you play fiddle tunes, and which ones?

3) Is there a computer program that magically transposes treble clef music into bass clef?

[mcnaire2004]

I honestly would like to learn some fiddle tunes.

[LeslieD]

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

I honestly would like to learn some fiddle tunes.

I guess that makes [only] two of us! Where I work, I have thousands of CDs (Classical, Folk, Jazz, Blues, you name it), and I've yet to find any recordings of fiddle tunes on the DB. Well, a few things Edgar Meyer recorded comes pretty close (but I think those are mostly tunes he wrote).

There are lovely Celtic Airs that would sound wonderful on the bass! Unfortunately, when I play them they aren't so lovely. And of course many of the fiddle bowing techniques are basically impossible on the bass.

The tunes I often played were Swallow Tail Jig, John Ryans Polka, Sheabeg an Shemore (sometimes called "She Begs for More"), and Midnight on the Water (a waltz). I worked on a few others, but had to transcribe most into keys that were more "bass-friendly."

Most of the Old Time tunes have an A and a B part, and many modulate into a different key for the B part. When transcribing them into bass clef, I ened up even messing with the tune a little so that it stayed in a more limited range. The tunes just sounded stupid (and less "listenable) when they were all over the fingerboard. I suppose if I tuned my bass in 5ths, I wouldn't have any of these problems (just huge problems getting used to playing in 5ths).

Most of the tunes I experimented with are in "The Fiddler's Fake Book" and "The Portland Collection" (of contradance music in the Pacific Northwest).

Still...it's hard to believe no other bass players have experimented with this music/sound.

[bassface747]

The Fiddler's Fake Book is possible one of the greatest books known to man. Or at least fiddlers.

Road to Lisdoonvarna, Star of the County Down, and the Kesh Jig are two tunes that also work very well on bass, in addition to the ones already mentioned.

I thought Finale Notepad would do the trick as for transposing from treble to bass, but apparently it doesn't. You could always do it by hand....

[ubasshudson]

The Sibelius music writing program (and about every other similar product) magically transposes treble clef music into bass clef. Many celtic and old time tunes are easily managed on the bass. The bowings need to be adjusted, usually. The attitudes of the fiddlers from whom you steal the melodies may also require some adjustments. The guitar players who must suddenly manage to chick without a boom will also whine if you forsake your God given duty. In fact the intonation and sense of timing of the entire ensemble will quickly go to shite if you atempt a melody. For God's sake reconsider. Tom Hudson

[LeslieD]

Yes, "Road to Lisdoonvarna" is particularly lovely and haunting on the bass. I've managed to play that without too many complaints from the guitar and fiddle players. But...yes, the crowd is usually anxious for me to get back to playing strictly the booms for their chicks. But can't a bass player indulge herself/himself once in awhile?

Thanks for suggesting the Sibelius writing program. I can't recall the name of the software I was using before my old computer died (and took it down with it), but it wouldn't convert treble to bass.

[brianrost]

Originally Posted by LeslieD

A few questions for you TB DB folks:
1) are there DB folks who can read treble clef and transpose it on the fly (into bass clef, and perhaps into other keys)? And how do the heck do you do it?

Yes, I learned to read treble clef while in elementary school. I first saw bass clef in high school when I took organ lessons. I can read either clef just fine.

Originally Posted by LeslieD

2) do you play fiddle tunes, and which ones?

Like you I never had a need to play the melodies, this is a problem because it makes it harder to remember tunes. Learning the melody even if you never need to play it helps your memory.

[lloccmttocs]

If you want to do the cheap way of transposing on the spot, just draw another line on the staff and ignore the bottom line because the notes are the same if you pretend the 2nd (from the bottom) line is the first line for bass clef. Like treble is egbdf so if you draw a line on top and ignore the e line it is now gbdfa. A little trick I learned when I switched from classical guitar to classical bass. A wise switch, I always felt guitar was too showy not to mention everyone and their cousin plays guitar. Give it a try, after a while you get used to it without the line and then you can transpose on the spot.

[Simandl Fan]

Before you think about playing Irish music in an authentic session, check out www.thesession.org, a site for Irish traditional music (ITM) worldwide. There have been many discussion threads as to which instruments would be welcome (i.e, considered "authentic") at a session. I play violin at these. Certainly, you could play all these tunes on the bass. And, at the above site, you can download the music in standard notation as well as ABC notation for thousands of session tunes. It's a lot of fun; but beware! Session denizens think that classical musicians look down their noses at them since we are "dot-bound" instead of playing by ear, and can be a bit touchy at times. Still, check it out- sessions are a lot of fun, and the beer tastes so much better after a medley of reels.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by Simandl Fan

Before you think about playing Irish music in an authentic session, check out www.thesession.org, a site for Irish traditional music (ITM) worldwide. There have been many discussion threads as to which instruments would be welcome (i.e, considered "authentic") at a session. I play violin at these. Certainly, you could play all these tunes on the bass. And, at the above site, you can download the music in standard notation as well as ABC notation for thousands of session tunes. It's a lot of fun; but beware! Session denizens think that classical musicians look down their noses at them since we are "dot-bound" instead of playing by ear, and can be a bit touchy at times. Still, check it out- sessions are a lot of fun, and the beer tastes so much better after a medley of reels.

Thanks man.

[Jason Sypher]

hey yes, I definately bow fiddle tunes on the bass. Unfortunately I don't have any good recordings of me right now but I do have a very loose video on my myspace page of me playing chicken reel with a few friends at a festival. Unfortunately I didn't really know the tune and kind of flubbed it a bit but you get the idea. If you want my advice don't even bother with the sheet music. Find tunes that mean something to you personally and internalize them completely and THEN, begin to work them out on the bass. The key to making these tunes work is the bowing and the rhythm. Check this out and in the meantime I'll try to find something to send you that is more cohesive.

Here is the link, it's the last video on the left.
http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

[mchildree]

Jaco Pastorius stated on many occasions that he developed his staggering solo skills by simply learning both the bass line AND the melody to every tune he ever worked out... apparently his father insisted on this approach from an early age. This seems to me to be a sound and sensible concept, and what you propose is a good practice. Even though you may seldom get the opportunity to "perform" these tunes, it can only improve your solo vocabulary and definitely your technique.

FWIW, I've often had the same desire. I spent several years in a busy bluegrass band, and playing the fiddle tunes was always my favorite. I got to the point where, if we were playing festivals, I'd seek out the jam where the fiddlers gathered to do this stuff so I could hear and play more. The endless quantity of these tunes really appealed to me...it's like collecting them or something, even if you're only playing the bass.

[flatpicker913]

Hi - I am no great shakes on the double bass, but play plenty of sessions and know a lot of the tunes (on guitar & mandolin). You can never hope to keep up with the fiddles on many of these tunes, but you can usually outline the melody nicely by playing one or two notes per bar. This will usually sound better than trying to stick faithfully to the tune (unless you have a phenomenal technique!). As far as converting treble to bass clef on the fly, not sure why you want to. Better to learn to read treble clef and know where the notes are on your bass (though you will be playing an octave or two lower than written).
Having said all that, I've never had the nerve to try it myself in a live situation. Good luck...!

[Mike Goodbar]

I can read treble (7 years of piano lessons), and I've been reading some fiddle tunes out of a Mel Bay book my daughter found in the discount rack at the local music store.

Most of them just don't lay very well (must be a 4ths v. 5ths thing). One solution I've come up with is playing with a lot of thumb on the lower half of the neck. Still hard, but the thumb acts as a capo for some of the more devilish string crossing stuff.

[LeslieD]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

hey yes, I definately bow fiddle tunes on the bass. Unfortunately I don't have any good recordings of me right now but I do have a very loose video on my myspace page of me playing chicken reel with a few friends at a festival. Unfortunately I didn't really know the tune and kind of flubbed it a bit but you get the idea. If you want my advice don't even bother with the sheet music. Find tunes that mean something to you personally and internalize them completely and THEN, begin to work them out on the bass. The key to making these tunes work is the bowing and the rhythm. Check this out and in the meantime I'll try to find something to send you that is more cohesive.

Here is the link, it's the last video on the left.
http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

Ummm, what can I say, but FANTASTIC! You're playing a steady rhythm AND the melody! (Who needs the guitar and banjo? They're just background dribble!) I'm quite impressed! Get this stuff recorded and I'll get you on the radio! (I'm in public broadcasting). This is what I'm talking about!!!

[Jason Sypher]

Hey thanks for the support Leslie. I really wish I had something better to show you, I've worked up tunes that are much better that this ad libbed one. I love these tunes and you would be surprised how many really work well on the bass. There are levels to capturing the sound. For me another key thing is to get open strings and doublestops happening in a way that is both functional and beautiful. This chicken reel clip doesn't have any of that. I'm on tour in Holland right now so I can't access what I'd like to show you right now. When I get back I will get you some more stuff to hear and critique. I really welcome a dialog with other players to help me better express what i'm after. I'm working a bunch of tunes up (some oldtime, some irish, some hungarian/roumainian) to record both solo and duet in the next six months.

[LeslieD]

Jason--yes, please share your recordings when you get the chance! I can't say that it's a completely new sound, but it's certainly leaps and bounds ahead of what I've heard from most OT string band bassists. You didn't drop a single beat when you switched back and forth between pizz and arco. If you could play a harmonica at the same time, you'd be a whole band. It's neat that you spent time down in Galax! I've never been there myself. If you get a chance, let us know what OT recordings/songs you're listening to and which ones you think work best on bass (and why). I've heard and probably played the chicken reel before, but certainly not anything the way you do! Enjoy Holland!

[Jason Sypher]

Yeah, it's true, none of this is entirely new. And furthermore, in the era of Edgar and other virtuosic bassists expanding the instrument in everywhich way, it can be hard to even bother with it all. However, that could be said of almost anything. Personally I was hearing this in my head long before I ever heard of an Edgar Meyer. But we play the music that is in us, nomatter the odds or the enviornment or the difficulty or the sense! It literally takes so much work to even get a bow sound that is musical and personal that most people don't even bother and still go on to be very successful bassists. I question it myself, "why would anyone spend so much time trying to fiddle a gypsy or oldtime tune on the bass when it is infinitely easier and in some ways more musically palatable on the violin". Why? Because I have to and I love it. I get up and that is the music I hear in my head so I go to the instrument and search for the sound. Ed Fuqua has said it so well many times here on TB, paraphrased, "play what you hear". It is, for me, rule number one. And in another way "play your life". It doesn't have to make sense to anyone. It doesn't have to even sound good to anyone. You play what you hear and what best expresses your life, let the others figure it out come what may. I think the originality will come if you are being true to yourself. New, Old, Relevent, Rediculous. The bassists play on.

[Momamony]

OK, beat me up, but for folks who don't have Sibelius software and
would like to play from sheet music written in bass clef, I can recommend a couple of things.

1. CD + booklet which you can enlarge on a photocopier. Mel Bay
presents JP Trax by Dix Bruce: Old Time & Fiddle Tunes for Cello. You can throw away the CD if you don't want to hear that, uh, instrument, but it has songs like "Red-Haired Boy" and "Black Mountain Rag".
Some of the bowings are actually useful.

2. Book: Mel Bay Presents American Fiddle Tunes by Craig Duncan.
It says Cello Bass on the cover and just Cello on the title page. This one has "Mississippi Sawyer", "Flopeared Mule", and "Over the Waterfall."

I enjoy playing these at home or if I'm in a jam with just a couple of people.

[BassAxe]

Wow! Around these parts, I've never met another bass player in the Irish, Celtic, and Old Tyme sessions. I was starting to feel like the only one in the world.

I started off on violin back when I was a kid. I still break out the fiddle on my own time, but both of my bands have enough going on without me causing any more treble.

With The Possum Ridge String Band, I play upright bass and didjeridoo.
http://www.possumridge.org
And with another band, Aon, I play upright, acoustic bass guitar, didjeridoo, and djembe.
http://www.aonband.com

What I find to be the biggest challenge is coming up with a unique bass part to each individual tune. For this style of music, it would be too easy to just play open bass strings. I like to exercise some bass creativity without cluttering the music by overplaying.

In reference to the initial questions, I found it easier to learn where the treble clef notes would be on my bass, even if it is off by an octave or two.

Fiddle tunes, yes. I play just about anything... Swallowtail Jig and Haste to the Wedding come to mind. But there are too many melody players in my bands and at sessions, so I fill the vacuum of bass.

The best computer I have is in my head. I use my ears to input the data more than my eyes.