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03-20-2005, 05:01 PM
|  | Official Forum Flunkee | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA | | | Changes Question: Scrapple vs. Honeysuckle
Hi guys,
Just wondering about these two tunes and the way they're "normally" played. They're both slightly different, but I'm wondering if the typical "pro" plays them as they are differentiated in the real books, or do they play it the same way, or is it all mixed up?
Scrapple From the Apple (Real book) reads:
Chorus
Gm7|C7|Gm7|C7
Fmaj7|Gm7 C7|FMaj7 Gm7|A-7 D7
Bridge
A7|A7|D7|D7
G7|G7|C7|C7
Honeysuckle Rose (Sher books) reads:
Chorus
Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7|Gm7 C7
Fmaj7/Bbm7 C7/Fmaj7 Bb7/Abm7 D7
Bridge:
A7|A7|Bb7|Bb7
G7|G7|C7|C7
Theorywise from what I can tell, the choruses look like they're chromatically similar, especially if Honeysuckle is played with G-& and C7 one bar per chord like Scrapple.
The bridges look like it's II V II V vs. a VI II IV I7.
Is my analysis correct? Thanks!
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Last edited by hdiddy : 03-20-2005 at 05:04 PM.
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03-21-2005, 09:45 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | That HONEYSUCKLE bridge looks funny, my best recollection is that I started on the tonic and have some kind of rising chromatic line.
I'll call it tomorrow night and see what happens.
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03-21-2005, 09:54 AM
| | | | F7 | |Bb |
G7 | |C7 | |
03-21-2005, 10:03 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | Yeah, so at least in the head the line kind of follows the melody F G /Ab A/ Bb C / D C Bb/. etc.
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"It takes a pretty great drummer to be better than no drummer" -Chet Baker
BECAUSE AWESOME CAT IS AWESOME!!!!!
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03-21-2005, 10:20 AM
| | Official Forum Flunkee | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Ray Parker F7 | |Bb |
G7 | |C7 | | Woops, I wrote it wrong. Ray is right. |
03-21-2005, 05:18 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | | Jim Hall and most people play this with straight Honeysuckle changes. Bird used rhythm changes on the bridge.
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Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz: |
03-22-2005, 12:37 PM
| | Official Forum Flunkee | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA | | Thanks Paulo, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. 
I'm aware that there's alotta tricks/changes/cut-corners that the general lot of jazz players make to certain tunes that the fake books don't reflect. I'll be asking more of these kinda questions as I go along learning the repetoire. |
03-22-2005, 03:03 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: malibu | |  honeysuckle and scrapple?
hey guys,
when i play scrapple, during my solo i like to quote honeysuckle over both A sections, then use some standard reharmonizations over the bridge (starting on A7), then requote the honeysuckle adding a half step modulation ala bird on the second pass at opening phrase (in the last A section).
over the bridge i have "stole" a bunch of reharms from dick hyman's take on gershwins changes, then just brought them into the key i need. i re-use at will over any form of changes, in any key.
here is one
Am7|Ab7|[Dm7/G7]|Db7|[Gm7/C7]|Gb7|[Cm7/F7]|B7
thanks!
simon |
03-22-2005, 04:01 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by brutuscheezcake hey guys,
when i play scrapple, during my solo i like to quote honeysuckle over both A sections, then use some standard reharmonizations over the bridge (starting on A7), then requote the honeysuckle adding a half step modulation ala bird on the second pass at opening phrase (in the last A section).
over the bridge i have "stole" a bunch of reharms from dick hyman's take on gershwins changes, then just brought them into the key i need. i re-use at will over any form of changes, in any key.
here is one
Am7|Ab7|[Dm7/G7]|Db7|[Gm7/C7]|Gb7|[Cm7/F7]|B7
thanks!
simon | Just curious....while you're doing this, what does the chordal instrument (Guitar/piano) do? Or, do you hip him/her to all this stuff?
I always thought jazz was an improvisational art. Sounds like you kinda have this all planned out?
If I were a pianist/guitarist, I think I would kill you. 
I am joking.....
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Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz:
Last edited by Paul Warburton : 03-22-2005 at 04:04 PM.
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03-22-2005, 04:46 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: malibu | | empathy
Senor Paulo,
i am lucky enough to be working with a master musician and a helluva pedagogue.
when we play duets, i keep my ears wide open, as well as watch for those subtle hints in facial or body movement. we have been playing together 3 years so far so i have a small catalogue subs that we use. he knows my common phrases and the "cheats" (extending out a dominant and such) i am partial to, so he can safely assume what i am attempting. the interplay is fascinating.
you know, we may use coltranes changes over "the girl from pasadena" at the end of the verses, or we may not. i never really know. i justr hafta listen and be "on the job".
i have no idea where a song will progress to when we start it. i have to listen and react.
sometimes is works "less" well, sometimes its magic.
improvisation doesnt mean un-practiced in this case. its nothing we call.
and it wouldnt work without prior discussion. 3 years worth. i write it all down...
doorbell! gotta go, but i will return....
simon |
03-22-2005, 04:54 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | | I gotta go to the bathroom...i'll be right back.
__________________
Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz: |
03-22-2005, 05:10 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: malibu | | now now now
now now now
maybe i shoulda said, i gotta go deal with the DirecTV guys, rather than just answer the doorbell.
ahhh well....
maybe some contextual linguistic disambiguation?
Si Senor, your table is ready!
hehehehe,
simon |
03-24-2005, 07:26 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Las Vegas | | | Anybody know if Dick Hyman has any educational materials out? Like his work. Check him out on his collaboration with Major Holley and Slam Stewart on the CD called "Shut Yo Mouth," I think on the Delios label.
I can see knowingly having an assortment of alternate changes to blow over as a learning tool or in a band setting. In a freelance setting that's where it stops for me as one guy can't assume that the next cat whom he freelances with on that harmonic level is going to or will be able to go along with the 'nouveau' changes. The pianist or guitarist probably has his own thang going on. There are many ways a bassist can hook himself up with the harmonic instrument in that musically collaborative zone. |
03-24-2005, 10:54 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | Doesn't he have a book of re-harms for standards out? I'm almost positive.
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"It takes a pretty great drummer to be better than no drummer" -Chet Baker
BECAUSE AWESOME CAT IS AWESOME!!!!!
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03-24-2005, 11:11 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: malibu | | hyman book
hey guys,
dick hyman has a very book out there on reharms and subs. i borrowed it a while back. thats where i got the scrapple bridge stuff. offa his changes bridge.
the name?
Dick Hyman's Professional Chord Changes and Substitutions for 100 Tunes Every Musician Should Know
subs and reharms are not something i would do out on a casual where i did not know everybody, well maybe on my solo i would....
simon |
03-24-2005, 12:29 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NYC | | Yeah with a name like Dick Hyman..
f**ing around with changes is unavoidable
No it's not a new ky jelly commercial..  |
03-24-2005, 04:20 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | | Hyman/Hindman
People always get Dick Hyman confused with my piano playing buddy Dick Hindman.
I played a bunch of those Jazz Parties with Dick Hyman....he specializes in organ playing, but not that typical B3 organ trio stuff. He loves those old movie theatre organs. I think he even made some recordings on one.
__________________
Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz: |
03-24-2005, 04:24 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | Dick Hyman, organ playing... I feel like I've stumbled into a Beavis & Butthead episode...
__________________
"It takes a pretty great drummer to be better than no drummer" -Chet Baker
BECAUSE AWESOME CAT IS AWESOME!!!!!
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03-24-2005, 05:03 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua Dick Hyman, organ playing... I feel like I've stumbled into a Beavis & Butthead episode... | Yep...pretty classy huh?
__________________
Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz: |
03-26-2005, 09:16 AM
|  | Journeyman Clam Artist Moderator | | Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Winnipeg, baby | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul Warburton He loves those old movie theatre organs. | Fats Waller and Basie used to play movie theatre and church organs, too, for kicks and for bucks. Apparently Fats killed at that stuff. I've never really heard much of it, I realize. This record looks pretty good.
Hey, it's not like Fats is off-topic in this thread.
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Last edited by Damon Rondeau : 03-26-2005 at 09:31 AM.
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