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10-06-2008, 06:59 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia | | | Cold Duck Time.
I'm just starting to understand the modes and how they play their part in all music. I just picked up a chart for Eddie Harris' Cold Duck Time and saw the two chords D7 and G7. I was just wondering how these two chords fit together. What relationship do these chords have with each other? If the D7 is a mixolydian, shouldn't the 4 chord of that (ie G) be played with an Ionian which doesn't have a dominant 7? I know this is the case for hundreds of tunes but I'm just using this as an example.
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10-06-2008, 08:35 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Orleans | | | Hmm....don't know the answer to your question, but i love playing that tune with a trio. Do you know who's on bass on the original version?
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10-06-2008, 09:12 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Chicago | | | Leroy Vinegar on bass on the original from Swiss Movement.
Regarding the D7 to G7 progression, which has to be one of the most used in R&B, soul, funky jazz and smooth jazz with probably thousands of tunes exploiting it:
They are both dominant 7th chords, so mixolydian scales work with both. If D7 is the tonic, root, key center of the tune, G7 is a fourth above, resolving back to D7. You would not play a D major scale, if that is what you are referring to as ionian, over a G7 chord as the third of a D7 chord is F# and the 7th degree of a G7 chord is F natural. A G mixolydian scale has an F natural, which corresponds to the dominant 7th degree in a G7 chord. A Gmaj7 chord has F# as its 7th degree.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Eric Hochberg : 10-06-2008 at 09:24 PM.
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10-07-2008, 01:57 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia | | | Yeah I understand that you can't play a D major or a G major (ionian) over the G7. But I was just kinda wondering what relationship the D7 and the G7 have with each other. Why do they work together? Why is the I and the IV both played with a mixolydian? |
10-07-2008, 07:21 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chicago | | | Eric is right on. There are a million tunes that use this progression. The one that gets called a bunch here in Chitown is Mercy Mercy Mercy where the solos are an extended I -IV progession (usually in Bb) with the rest of the form as the out.
The way I like to think about it is as follows. Think of what changes with the pitch collection between the two chords D7 and G7. One note right? F --> F#. I prefer to think pitch collection rather than scale because sometimes your collection can't be categorized and for that matter categorization when you are improvising is a waste of valuable metal energy. Now think of what I call the 'dot to dot' method of soloing. Pick your favorite starting note over D7 the 'draw a line' to your favorite note in the G7 chord. Keep in mind the slight change in pitch collection. Sometimes you can get the F# to work over the G7 as long as you use it as a passing tone in the right place.
Remember your phrasing when you are building your solo. Start small and build. The best analogy I've heard is to think of meeting a friend on the street. You don't start by telling them your life story. Say 'hi' first.
Good luck. |
10-07-2008, 07:38 AM
| | Registered User
Endorsing Artist; Arnold Schnitzer/ Wil DeSola New Standard RN DB | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern NJ | | | Here G7 is functioning like the IV in a blues progression.
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10-07-2008, 09:51 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Chicago | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitschead  Yeah Why is the I and the IV both played with a mixolydian? | Because as a general rule, melodies made up of mixolydian scales sound good, or "right" or consonant, when played over a dominant 7th chord of the same name. In this case, both the I and IV chords are spelled like a dominant 7th.
Why do they work together? I guess, because they sound good! As Bri said, it's the blues. |
10-07-2008, 10:51 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Chicago | | Quote:
Originally Posted by fingers ....... waste of valuable metal energy. | (trying to think of an apropos Metallica song with that progression  )
..I actually like a #11 over that progression too...adds a nice color...
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10-07-2008, 10:54 AM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago | | Man, when you guys start to talk theory, I get all oogie inside. And that's a good thing.
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Originally Posted by relacey If I were forced to play a bass equal to my talent/ability I'd have a washtub and a stick. And it would probably be a dirty stick. | |
10-07-2008, 06:11 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | Quote:
Originally Posted by ehochberg Leroy Vinegar on bass on the original from Swiss Movement.
Regarding the D7 to G7 progression, which has to be one of the most used in R&B, soul, funky jazz and smooth jazz with probably thousands of tunes exploiting it:
They are both dominant 7th chords, so mixolydian scales work with both. If D7 is the tonic, root, key center of the tune, G7 is a fourth above, resolving back to D7. You would not play a D major scale, if that is what you are referring to as ionian, over a G7 chord as the third of a D7 chord is F# and the 7th degree of a G7 chord is F natural. A G mixolydian scale has an F natural, which corresponds to the dominant 7th degree in a G7 chord. A Gmaj7 chord has F# as its 7th degree.
Hope this helps. | Holy ****! I love it when you talk that way. I almost got whip lash just reading it.
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Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
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10-07-2008, 08:14 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia | | | Actually don't worry about it. I worked out where that F natural comes from. It's the 3rd from the parallel minor to D major which is D minor. Another way of writing the G7 chord would be Dmin sus4 no5 6th. This chord is borrowed from the parallel dorian mode. |
10-07-2008, 08:30 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Denver, Co. | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitschead Actually don't worry about it. I worked out where that F natural comes from. It's the 3rd from the parallel minor to D major which is D minor. Another way of writing the G7 chord would be Dmin sus4 no5 6th. This chord is borrowed from the parallel dorian mode. | God damn! I wish Bill Evans was still alive so I could lay all this **** on him.
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Oh, no.....have we gone OT yet again?
"The opportunity was there...but it never presented itself." Phil Urso, 1980. :atoz: |
10-07-2008, 09:00 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chicago | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitschead Actually don't worry about it. I worked out where that F natural comes from. It's the 3rd from the parallel minor to D major which is D minor. Another way of writing the G7 chord would be Dmin sus4 no5 6th. This chord is borrowed from the parallel dorian mode. | Ouch. I need an aspirin.
You are thinking way too hard about it. Really you could just play the D blues scale and call it a day. Plenty of smooth jazz and blues cats do it.
Also think of the style. It is really just a modified blues form.
Isn't it usually played in F? |
10-07-2008, 09:04 PM
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10-07-2008, 09:05 PM
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10-07-2008, 09:09 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Chicago | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Warburton Holy ****! I love it when you talk that way. I almost got whip lash just reading it. | I almost got ill writing it! |
10-07-2008, 09:11 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Chicago | | Quote:
Originally Posted by fingers Ouch. I need an aspirin.
Isn't it usually played in F? | Aspirin for me too. I've only played it in F myself. |
10-08-2008, 08:34 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia | | | Yeah ok I'm a bit of a nerd because I just like to think about the theory behind things. I know you can just play it with a blues scale and that's what I would do with it as well. And yeah sorry I was reading the chords off my brothers chart for the alto sax and didn't think about the fact that he's in a different key. Sorry. |
10-08-2008, 08:42 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chicago | | | Which is totally cool. It is great that you are trying to get inside the head of the composer. The thing is sometimes, if we read too much into something, we end up making it harder than it needs to be.
Check out the original Eddie Harris recording. |
10-13-2008, 06:05 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: San Marvelous, Texas | | | C lydian might work too. |  | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | | | | 
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