Gloria's Step

[oliebrice]

Whats thechord in the last 2 bars of Gloria's Step?
I tred to work out the chords by ear, and couldn't decide whether it was an A7-9, or an Eb+11, and after looking at a couple of lead sheets I've seen both chords given. I know they're similar, but it'd be good to know.

[oliebrice]

before this thread disappears into a debate on the importance of writing things properly, anyone got an opinion on what the chord is? Paul?

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

Whats thechord in the last 2 bars of Gloria's Step?
I tred to work out the chords by ear, and couldn't decide whether it was an A7-9, or an Eb+11, and after looking at a couple of lead sheets I've seen both chords given

It boils down to listening to what the piano player is using as the root.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

Whats thechord in the last 2 bars of Gloria's Step?
I tred to work out the chords by ear, and couldn't decide whether it was an A7-9, or an Eb+11, and after looking at a couple of lead sheets I've seen both chords given. I know they're similar, but it'd be good to know.

Just spun the Riverside disc of the Evans Trio, and Bill is playing a BMa triad over G and C# (or, if you prefer, Db). Scott is playing both A and Eb. This makes the chord a dual function tritone sub - either A7#4(13), or Eb7#9(#5). They serve the same function, so either or both will work. How the chord is spelled on paper means nothing, since the sound is the same.

[oliebrice]

thanks

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

It boils down to listening to what the piano player is using as the root.

I suppose thats why it matters which chord is "correct". I'll be bringing the music to the rehersal, and so the guitarist is likely to use as the root whichever note is given on the chord sheet

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

I suppose thats why it matters which chord is "correct". I'll be bringing the music to the rehersal, and so the guitarist is likely to use as the root whichever note is given on the chord sheet

I recommend instead that you work out which sounds the best.

[bwulf]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

It boils down to listening to what the piano player is using as the root.

It depends on what the bass plays as root. The piano shouldn't be playing the root.

[bwulf]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Just spun the Riverside disc of the Evans Trio, and Bill is playing a BMa triad over G and C# (or, if you prefer, Db). Scott is playing both A and Eb. This makes the chord a dual function tritone sub - either A7#4(13), or Eb7#9(#5). They serve the same function, so either or both will work. How the chord is spelled on paper means nothing, since the sound is the same.

Bass determines what the chord is and it's function.
I tried for years to get away from pianocentric thinking and toward bassocentric thinking.

Some of my best friends are piano players.
Well, I used to know some.
OK, so I don't know any.

This should start a fight!

[T-Bal]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

I suppose thats why it matters which chord is "correct". I'll be bringing the music to the rehersal, and so the guitarist is likely to use as the root whichever note is given on the chord sheet

Tell him not to play the roots in general, especially in this type of tune. One of the things I love about those Bill Evans trio records is the absence of roots in Bill's voicings, which allows the bass player the freedom to choose from several different notes to play underneath any given chord. Like Chris and BEOWULF said, the bottom is the bass player's territory.

Disclaimer: voicings with roots are approriate at certain times and to a greater extent in other styles. Also it is not appropriate at certain times and in other styles for the bass player to use "alternative" bass notes. It is even possible to determine what the bass note should be of a certain voicings that contain no roots, given the context.

It's a fascinating dynamic that occurs between two harmonically fluid musicians who are listening to one another. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Bill Evans was one of a group of jazz pianists to demote (elevate?) chord roots to the status of "color tone" rather than "guide tone", meaning that he felt free to play the root - although not necessarily on the bottom of the voicing - when he felt that the color of that note added something to the music, but did not feel obligated to play it at all times. Listen to his comping on "Undercurrents" with Jim Hall, and you'll find that at times the roots of chords in the harmonic underpinning were completely absent. Note also that in the opinions of many (including myself), the music suffered not one iota from their absence.

[JazznFunk]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Just spun the Riverside disc of the Evans Trio, and Bill is playing a BMa triad over G and C# (or, if you prefer, Db). Scott is playing both A and Eb. This makes the chord a dual function tritone sub - either A7#4(13), or Eb7#9(#5). They serve the same function, so either or both will work. How the chord is spelled on paper means nothing, since the sound is the same.

Chris,
It's been a little while since I was in school for the theory bit, so I'm trying to refresh my memory on something. How does this movement relate back to the Fmaj7 at the top of the tune? I'm thinking of it as being a diminished relationship from the C7 (Eb7, Gb7, and Bb7 built off the C7 chord) back to the Fmaj chord, but I know that's not the full story, especially since this tune doesn't really "function" that much in a traditional sense. Can you offer some insight into that?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by JazznFunk

Chris,
How does this movement relate back to the Fmaj7 at the top of the tune? I'm thinking of it as being a diminished relationship from the C7 (Eb7, Gb7, and Bb7 built off the C7 chord) back to the Fmaj chord, but I know that's not the full story, especially since this tune doesn't really "function" that much in a traditional sense.

I think you nailed it with your last statement - this part of the tune isn't really "functional" in the traditional sense. The only real sense of "tonic" I get in the tune is the movement to Fmi in the first section. I hear the last section as a series of "deceptive" or "non-target" chords...IMO, this is the effect the tune is going for.

[T-Bal]

Originally Posted by JazznFunk

Chris,
It's been a little while since I was in school for the theory bit, so I'm trying to refresh my memory on something. How does this movement relate back to the Fmaj7 at the top of the tune? I'm thinking of it as being a diminished relationship from the C7 (Eb7, Gb7, and Bb7 built off the C7 chord) back to the Fmaj chord, but I know that's not the full story, especially since this tune doesn't really "function" that much in a traditional sense. Can you offer some insight into that?

When chord progressions don't fall into common categories, I find it useful to look at them as variations of conventional progressions. I also feel that you might find more than one way to make sense of it - how I understand it might be different than how you understand it.

In this case the root and chord progression, Eb7 to FMa7 is not uncommon. I would agree with you that the function of the Eb7 here is a relative of the V chord (although the other related chords include A7 not Bb7). So you basically have two measures of a dominant functioning chord at the end of the form, resolving to tonic at the top of the form. If you were to use the half-whole diminished scale starting on C, you would be in the park. (Don't nobody re-open the whole chord v. scale can o' worms, I don't wnat to hear it).

In other situations, when the Eb7 has no altered tensions, I see it as more of a plagal cadence (Bb-6 to FMa).

Another example of how I rationalize or get a grip on some sequences is to use inversions. Like in Ju-Ju, where it goes from AbMa7 to E-7. Just think of it as F-7 to E-7, or AbMa7 to GMa7 and all you have to do is shift down a half-step.

I'm not a real Chris, but I play one on the computer.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by T-Bal

(Don't nobody re-open the whole chord v. scale can o' worms, I don't wnat to hear it).

I cnould't care less what you dno't wnat to hear. If you cna't sntad the heat, stay out of the knitche!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by T-WNA

(Don't nobody re-open the whole chord v. scale can o' worms, I don't wnat to hear it).
I'm not a real Chris, but I play one on the computer.

Wnat's tnat suppothed do Mnean?

[T-Bal]

Holy crizapp, one little typo and you guys are on me like bug spray on boll weevils.

[Ed Fuqua]

We exist but to serve....

[anonymous0726]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I cnould't care less what you dno't wnat to hear. If you cna't sntad the heat, stay out of the knitche!

Freakin' tears shooting out mine eyes

I don't really hear the last chord resolving to the top of the tune at all, rather it just ends the previous phrase (both in melody and cadence). Nothing says that you have to turn around to the top of the tune with a V I, really, and in this case the top of the tune being a bit of a harmonic surprise is refreshing to my ear.

[T-Bal]

Originally Posted by napalm

I also feel that you might find more than one way to make sense of it - how I understand it might be different than how you understand it.