Koussevitzky Concerto

Votemusic · #1 05-27-2009, 11:06 AM

So I have been playing for four years and have had a private teacher for three and am 14. I just finished all three movements of the capuzzi concerto in F with no problem at all. I am pretty good at reading treble and tenor. My teacher said that we would pick a new solo at the next lesson and to think of some pieces that I like. We would then look them over to choose one. I want something challenging but that is not just a bunch of fast notes. I want something that has a lot of emotion and and is very beautiful. I think the 1st movement of the koussevitzky concerto would be perfect and I love the way it sounds. I printed off a sample page and started playing it. I can play it pretty well and am not having any trouble with the first page. I was just wondering if you think this concerto would be a good fit for my ability.

mcnaire2004 · #2 05-27-2009, 11:22 AM

Hmmm, the Koussevitzky is a very meaty concerto. To go to it after the Capuzzi is a bit odd.

I'd recoment the Dragonetti or the Dittersdorf. Yea, there are a bit of fast notes, but it is very lyrical.

Or, the Bottesini Elegy in D is a very nice solo to do. Plus there are some of Koussevitzky's little pieces that are nice and have enough emotion in them.

bejoyous · #3 05-27-2009, 11:48 AM

The Dragonetti concerto wouldbe a much better eduacational tool. You'll learn lost of harmonics, arpeggios up the g and d strings and lots of passages on the g and dstring at the octave thumb position (I forget what that position is called right now).

Musically it's not great but will amaze violinist that look down their noses at all instruments except violin!

Eli_Upright12 · #4 05-27-2009, 12:33 PM

Maybe you could ask for two pieces, you could do the Dragonetti or Dittersdorf and then do Chanson Triste which is another lyrical piece by Koussevitzky.

fergus currie · #5 05-27-2009, 02:06 PM

If you have been playing for only four years and you've just got Capuzzi under your belt then Koussevitzky is not yet for you. Even if you get through the first page which is not so hard there is a lot more and it's very strenuous for you (IMHO). If you are looking for a solo piece which wil contrast with the Capuzzi you could try either of the 2 short pieces by Koussevitzky, Valse Minature and Chanson Triste. Both of these go a bit high as does the Bottesini Elegy in D metioned above. The concertos at your disposal at this level are the Dragonetti, which I would highly recomend and the Cimador which is again classical like the Capuzzi but more challenging and a lot more musical.

(The Dittersdorf is worth getting and working on but you should really leave this till later since you must learn this particular concerto correctly since you will be asked to play it in auditions and exams. You will grow to love or hate this concerto but you mustn't learn it sloppily or you will have twice as much work to do when you prepare it for those times you need it. Personally I hate it but I have had to learn it well for exams {in 1979 LLCM exam eek! and 1983 undergrad orchestral audition mockup exam} in the past so I know what I'm talking about. although now I play the Bottesini B minor in auditions. You might like the slow movement of this one.)

Another thing you could do is to have a look at the Intermezzo by Gliere which while not too difficult requires a nice tone and good intonaion.

If you are planing to play these pieces in public you should go for simpler and well played rather than difficult with a lot of rough edges.

I think at the point you have reached you should be trying to learn something (a lot of things) from every new piece you play. There is a collection of Bottesini solos in 3 volumes published by Yorke Edition which I found very helpful even if it took me almost a decade before 'outing' any of the works in these volumes. Yorke also have a wide selection of bass and piano repertoire wich is graded so you can see if something is just a bit more difficult than the piece you learned last. That way you are always pushing your self but never too hard.

My final word: Try the first movement of the Dragonetti (not the other two just yet), the 'Elephant's Gavotte' by David Walter and 'Chanson Triste' by Koussevitzky. That gives you three contrasting pieces which you can work into a program for an short recital.
FC

Pat Harris · #6 05-27-2009, 02:59 PM

My opinion: Play what moves you. If you want to play the Kouss, play it. If you're going to work on the Kouss, you WILL get requisite playing skills from working up that piece. You do not have to perform everything you practice. If I had a 14 year old student that wanted to play one of the war-horses of bass lit, I'd be all about it-- especially if the student was digging it. I would do whatever I could to help a student make music. Sometimes you have to a student in a bit, but I would never ever discourage from playing a piece if they were generally interested in learning it and willing to put in the time. There is value in all music, but why perform something if your heart and soul isn't into it... because somebody told you to? That doesn't make sense to me. IMO there is a big difference between practicing concepts because as a bass player you ought to know them, and then working up material for a performance.

-Pat

fergus currie · #7 05-27-2009, 03:20 PM

Sorry Pat, I think you can do some serious damage by letting young players hack away at whatever they feel like. They will learn innumerable bad habits which will take years of remdedial work to correct if things go wrong. I know because I was that soldier!
FC

fergus currie · #8 05-27-2009, 03:22 PM

Build technique gradually and the Kossevitzky will still be there in a year or two and if the guy really means what he says that will be no obstacle.

Kaden · #9 05-27-2009, 06:34 PM

I played the capuzzi concert when i was 13 and then moved onto Dragonetti, VanHal, and now at 16 im playing Koussevitzky (among other things). I would recommend going with Dragonetti because it has lots of fun and challenging parts in it AND it will help lay the foundation for some of the technique used in Koussevitzky. IMHO it is vital to work your way up to pieces like Koussevitzky because you get lots of valuable experience from working through pieces like Dragonetti and Dittersdorf.

-Kaden

Pat Harris · #10 05-28-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergus currie

Sorry Pat, I think you can do some serious damage by letting young players hack away at whatever they feel like. They will learn innumerable bad habits which will take years of remdedial work to correct if things go wrong. I know because I was that soldier!
FC

I don't understand how this can happen if they have guidance from a teacher that is worth anything. If a teacher is working with a student on a piece of music, there shouldn't be bad habits forming, and it doesn't matter what the piece of music is. Yes there are some areas of the Kouss that are technically demanding, but the lyrical aspects of the first movement are not far and away harder than "Chanson Triste."

I also do not understand how people can instantly say what to do, or not to do without having any point of reference about the original poster's abilities other than what he had written.

MDEbass · #11 05-28-2009, 10:49 PM

i had about a six month period before perfecting capuzzi and doing koussevitzky
during those six months it was.....scales and thumb position. tons and tons of practice up in that register. then i started koussevitzky when i was really comfortable and it picked up naturally. i'd say your teacher is the best judge or your playing/what you can handle.

fergus currie · #12 05-29-2009, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

I don't understand how this can happen if they have guidance from a teacher that is worth anything. If a teacher is working with a student on a piece of music, there shouldn't be bad habits forming, and it doesn't matter what the piece of music is. Yes there are some areas of the Kouss that are technically demanding, but the lyrical aspects of the first movement are not far and away harder than "Chanson Triste."

It's very simple. The bad habits come so thick and fast that no teacher can stop them all without puting Koussevitzky back on the shelf. I had been playing about 6 years before I started the Koussevitzky concerto at the insistance of my professor at the Academy. It was a disaster! The double stopping and constant thumb pressure, the phrasing and bow control, the musical aspects etc. Everything was just a little too much and I ended up getting tendonitis and almost giving up the bass! After a six week break I came back and we did the Dragonetti 1st Mvt. and Storch-Hrabe studies really slowly. After about 2 years of remedial work on bowing arm weight and left hand support work I had another go at the Kossevitzky and this time I won the silver medal for string playing (not just bass) in the Royal Scottish Academy. So I know what a bitch like the Kouss. can do to a young, promissing bass player. And I know that it will still be there when you are ready for it. Teachers are not gods, they try to help but sometimes ambition needs to be checked, like my first professor who saw my potential but not my weaknesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

I also do not understand how people can instantly say what to do, or not to do without having any point of reference about the original poster's abilities other than what he had written.

I think Votemusic was very clear about what he thinks he wants and his mention of the Koussevitzky concerto, I think, was a suggestion rather than an ultimatum. He was looking for something with emotional content and very beautiful, but still a challenge. Most of the sugestions here have been very sensible. No one said 'try the complete Fryba' or 'the Bottesini F# minor' or anything like that. Chanson Triste is way easier than the concerto! I did 'Chanson' for my entrance audition at the Academy in Scotland 2 years before my concerto disaster and 4 years before my final conquest of the concerto. There is no comparison.

One last thought: any teacher worth his salt should not be getting students to play things they're not ready for. In the final analysis, only the teacher can really know what will suite the particular student and all we can do here is to share our advice and experience, and to suggest possibilities.
Nothing written in stone here.
FC

Pat Harris · #13 05-29-2009, 05:14 PM

I believe it is at this point in the discussion where I say, "I think have to agree to disagree," and then move on.

fergus currie · #14 05-30-2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

I believe it is at this point in the discussion where I say, "I think have to agree to disagree," and then move on.

As I said my friend, Nothing's written in stone.
FC

kamakiriad7 · #15 06-24-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bejoyous

The Dragonetti concerto wouldbe a much better eduacational tool. You'll learn lost of harmonics, arpeggios up the g and d strings and lots of passages on the g and dstring at the octave thumb position (I forget what that position is called right now).

Musically it's not great but will amaze violinist that look down their noses at all instruments except violin!

Hey Brian, sounds like a good recommendation. I'll see if I can start working with Tom Artiss on that in the fall.