Miles Davis: Over-rated?

[Howard K]

I wont pretend to be anything more than a novice in this area, but I enjoy all the Miles Davis material I have a great deal. I enjoy that, to me, his best playing is usually his simplest.

I also think that, as was said before, his most significant skill was in putting great musicians in a room together to play. Miles must have had an overwhleming abilty to hear potential in people and to imagine how they might sound playing together. It cant be just coincedance, he did it over and over again. To create new sounds and change music that many times just cant be overrated. I guess because this skill is less tangible than 'virtuosic technique' or 'compositional genius', for example, it is easier to undermine it?

All that said, by all accounts I've come accross he wasnt a very nice person </understatement> so maybe he doenst deserve all the credit!

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by brianrost

Someone mentioned Red Rodney...great player, better technically than Miles but does that mean he should be heralded more than Miles is?

No; only that Red should be heralded more than Red is.

[musicman5string]

Miles' appeal was beyond music; he was guy that made the list of top 10 people in the world you'd want to have dinner with or something like that....Red Rodney or Freddie Hubbard or Wynton Marsalis were not on that list.
Dig?
He's not anymore over-rated than Coltrane or Jaco or Hendrix are.

[Aaron Saunders]

You know, I never really understood this "Miles isn't for those who like fast bebop," and "Miles has a beautiful voice, but you shouldn't listen to him for chops." Yeah, when you compare him to dudes like Dizzy, Freddie Hubbard, or Arturo Sandoval, his chops aren't going to especially make him stand up, but after listening to things from his 60's quintet -- eg, E.S.P. and Riot -- and not just low-key modal stuff from Kind of Blue, I have NO clue where this "Miles anti-technique" bollocks comes from.

Exactly how much technical facility do you NEED to be a trumpeter, if this isn't considered especially dextrous?

[Tbeers]

Miles did some really, really cool stuff. And it still holds up tonight. The beginning of All Blues, from Kind of Blue? That's some cool stuff. I'm listening to it right now.

I think he's overrated.

[Jeremy Allen]

It's a little confusing to ask whether or not Miles is overrated. I guess my question is: what's his "rating" about which we're trying to discuss the appropriate degree? If the understanding is "Miles Davis is the one true God of All Jazz whose Sh!t Doth Not Stink" then no, that's not the case (that's not true of anybody). If the understanding is "Miles Davis is one of the most outstanding instrumentalists ever to play music, whose development of a unique jazz voice, ability to connect with listeners, and skill at organizing incredible ensembles/recording sessions is matched by very few indeed," then yeah, that's pretty much as true as an opinion can get. (...) If the understanding is "Miles Davis was a fumble-fingered prick who could hardly get around on his axe and who is only famous because he had the luck to be in the right place at the right time [every year for twenty-five years...] with the right people on the bandstand with him" well, that's pretty clearly just not true.

It's unfortunate that Miles was so popular and influential that the basic facts of his greatness--as a trumpet player and as a band leader--get overlooked in the effort to determine whether or not he was too influential--or at least more influential than any one person should expect to be (which may be the case). Had he never been anything but a sideman, he still would be recognized as one of the great and unique voices on his instrument (like Wayne Shorter on tenor, in Coltrane's shadow). Don't be fooled by any "Miles wasn't really a good trumpet player" BS--play "Porgy and Bess" or "Sketches of Spain" for a classical trumpet player sometime and watch their jaws hit the floor (Dizzy Gillespie, incidentally, "wore out" his first copy of "Sketches" within a few months of its being released); transcribe his solos from any up-tempo thing from the Workin-Cookin-Relaxin-Smokin set or any of the 1960s quintet stuff and try to play them and then say he didn't have any technical facility; try to play a ballad like he played "It Never Entered My Mind" or "Round Midnight" and then question his musicianship. When people ask whether or not Miles was overrated, I have to assume they're thinking of some reputation not entirely musical, because as a musician he was pretty much top-notch. (Uh, until the 1980s...but even that stuff isn't as wretched as many people think.)

[Tbeers]

For me, it's not about Miles being lucky instead of talented, or about his lack of technique. I think he was pretty great.

The issue for me is that there is more attached to the name "Miles Davis" than any one musician deserves.

[musicman5string]

But like I said before, any more than Trane, Jaco, Hendrix, Bird, etc? I don't think so....

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

But like I said before, any more than Trane, Jaco, Hendrix, Bird, etc? I don't think so....

Well, nobody argued that point. While I think Johono's post is probably the single best in this thread and anywhere I've seen on the subject, there IS way too much of the "Miles Davis is the One True God of Jazz," etc. crap. Not here, but just in general -- quite similar to the "Coltrane is the one true god of the tenor," "Jaco was the only electric bassist that ever mattered," "Nobody needs to evolve bpast Bird," and "Hendrix is the be all and end all of guitar," that's visible in other places. That's all hooey.

Like Johono said, it really does depend on who's doing the rating. This is not a black and white issue, here. If you want to think in terms of the business, then yes, Miles IS overrated in my opinion. Reissue after reissue of every album, compilations of the same two dozen songs in different configurations, etc. etc. Along with Trane, Bird, and Ellington, etc., the business is putting too much of a focus on the old jazz masters.
I walk into an HMV and in the jazz albums bin, there's more than 2 dozen Miles Davis CDs. A smaller amount for Trane and a few others, meanwhile, I've NEVER seen a Dave Holland album in there -- and Dave Holland is regarded by the jazz community as being one of its top players, composers, and band leaders today! I know it's not exactly the most accurate barometer for the opinions of the jazz community, but he cleaned house in the Downbeat Reader's poll. For that matter, I've never even seen an MJQ record in an HMV. The jazz section is taken up completely by Miles Davis, Diana Krall, and Jamie Cullum, with some cuts by other musicians (and usually not even their choice ones.) I count myself as being very lucky to have stumbled on a Joe Lovano album there last week.

[cgworkman]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Miles' appeal was beyond music; he was guy that made the list of top 10 people in the world you'd want to have dinner with or something like that....Red Rodney or Freddie Hubbard or Wynton Marsalis were not on that list.
Dig?
He's not anymore over-rated than Coltrane or Jaco or Hendrix are.

Well put. Quick answer: Hell no.

[Kneehimiah]

If I wanted to give someone an idea of what jazz is about (and I know that some of us have problems with that word, even) and only had one CD to do it with, Kind of Blue would be my choice.

Kneehimiah
www.ramonpooser.com