Why is 200 year old score still under copyright?

[norcalsurfer]

I apologize if this has already been answered elsewhere, but I am a new player. When I go looking for classical music from the 18th and 19th Century, I can rarely find it at a reasonable cost because the music is under copyright of some publisher.

I don't understand how music this old is still paying copyright and to whom? Is it just some greedy publisher milking this cow 200 years later?

[obsession600]

Originally Posted by norcalsurfer

Is it just some greedy publisher milking this cow 200 years later?

Yes, sort of. Sometimes there will be an estate or foundation that has been set up that administers the rights as well.

[norcalsurfer]

According to wikipedia, copyrights for authors expire within 70 years of their death, maximum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...pyright_length
So I guess someone is re-copyrighting the material? How does that not violate "prior art" ?

[Marc Piane]

Are you talking about the copyright on the sheet music? That only pertains to reproduction of the sheet music itself I believe.

The performance and recording of the piece is an entirely different thing.

[norcalsurfer]

I mean the score. But isn't that the music too? I don't understand Isn't all the same intellectual property? Mozart wrote the score as a way to record the music for others to play. So how does a publisher have IP rights to prevent copying it?

[Marc Piane]

Nope. There are several parts of the whole process that can be protected in different ways by copyright including published music, books of collections, recordings, etc. It's like xeroxing a textbook. A publisher spent the money to professionally reproduce it. Copying it is 'giving away' the product that they are trying to sell. Same with a cd. The Goldberg Variations themselves are no longer copyrighted but Glen Gould's performance of them is.

at least that is my understanding

[Roadman]

The copyright belongs to the printer, not the creator of the music.

You have the right to play it, record it and sell it royalty free. What you can't do is make photocopies of the sheet music that was printed by the copyright holder. It's a printing thing, not a music thing.

They are not greedy, they are just entitled to protect their work the same way anyone else is compensated for the fruits of their labor.

But hey, if you want to learn the Bach Concertos by ear, go for it.

[norcalsurfer]

If you're right and the only thing the sheet music people are doing is copyrighting the typeset of the music, then $40 for 10 pages of music sounds a lot like greed to me.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by norcalsurfer

I apologize if this has already been answered elsewhere, but I am a new player. When I go looking for classical music from the 18th and 19th Century, I can rarely find it at a reasonable cost because the music is under copyright of some publisher.

I don't understand how music this old is still paying copyright and to whom? Is it just some greedy publisher milking this cow 200 years later?

What music are you talking about specifically?

[Sherwood]

not necessarily. I don't know how much work and/or funds went into publishing the music in the first place.

[gumtownbassman]

You can always find anything on the internet and print it out yourself.

[kb9wyz]

According to a book I have, the original music, like a book, can be copyrighted, note for note. The copyright expires at 75 years following the composers death in the US, or 50 years in Europe. After a piece becomes public domain, anyone can arrange the piece and then copyright the arrangement for the above mentioned periods. If a piece is reproduced from the original arrangement by the composer, then a publisher cannot invoke copyright over the material, and you are limited only in that you can't reprint the material they sell for profit by any kind of photocopy process in order to make money for yourself. But you could xerox it and give copies to your orchestra, enter it into Finale or some thing and sell those copies, because there is no more copyright on the on the original arrangement.

P.S. The book, I hope memory serves, is the Complete Idiot's Guide to Composition and Arranging. It could be in one of my other source books, but I'm pretty certain that this is the right one.

[Michael Eisenman]

Originally Posted by gumtownbassman

You can always find anything on the internet and print it out yourself.

Try here for a start: http://imslp.org/wiki/

It's public domain, but some modern pieces are not downloadable in the U.S. because the copyrights have not expired here (for example, pieces by Gershwin).

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by norcalsurfer

If you're right and the only thing the sheet music people are doing is copyrighting the typeset of the music, then $40 for 10 pages of music sounds a lot like greed to me.

Call it what you want but it operates on the same principles as anything in the capitalist market. They weigh the cost of production vs what they think the market will bear and put a price on it. In this case you vote with your wallet. If you think it's unreasonable the only way to send that message is to not buy it.

I'm sure people say the same thing about musicians that expect to be paid for their work.

[Fletcher Lanning]

You have to think about the fact that the composer is not the only person who has put time and energy into that score. For every release of a particular piece of music, you have someone who goes through the entire score and sets things that were not necessarily laid out by the original composer (and verifies those that were). If you look in a modern score the Handel's Messiah, there are all sorts of tempo and volume markings. Handel wrote one 'forte' in the entire piece. He made no other markings, the guy who does that needs to get paid right?

Next there is the editor who goes through and makes sure that all of the markings are in the right place, that all of the stems and bars are in the correct positions, that notes are written in tied in such a way that they are readable by musicians.

After this, someone must go through each individual instrument's part to be released for orchestra use and make sure that the score's layout is visually correct and that the systems and page turns are put in in such a way to allow for the easiest page turns (haven't you ever thought about how convenient it is that on page X of composer X's symphony your 4 bar rest falls right at the page turn?).

NEXT you have to send it to the final editor who will decide what size/type/color of paper and binding this particular score will go in. All final decisions are made and it is sent to the printer, who also needs to be paid for both his product and the labor of those running the printing shop.

At the end of the day, after all those people get their salaries paid, you have to hope and pray that someone is going to buy your brand new version of this piece because you've shelled out a ton of cash to have X copies of it made (it isn't exactly something you can make to order).

When all is said and done, what little profit is left goes to the publisher who shelled out all the money to make sure this music is still available when and if somebody decides they want to play it. At that point, the composer might see a little bit of money in residuals.

Just wanted to show you how much work goes into the one piece of music, all on spec.

[Bill Bentgen]

To build on what others have said:

Go to a local library and borrow a score to a Beethoven symphony. Create a double bass part from the score using Finale, Sibelius, or, God forbid, copy it by hand. Make sure everything is accurate, then make sure the page turns work, etc.

Now . . . . you want to give that away????