Bassist/Music bashing- which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[RBrownBass]

I've read so many threads here where people comment on the playing of this bassist or that bassist or this album or that album. If the music on the album fits on one end or the other of a scale of difficulty, the comments tend to either praise or bash the music or the player. Very little of the bashing is direct (most of it comes in the form of comments like "serving the music" or "I just never understood the need for...". The same thing happens in Basses when people bring up what Jaco needed or why more than four or five or six strings is "necessary" or what Leo did), so you have to pay attention to see it.

Obviously, most of us -myself included- can love listening to and playing many different kinds of music while recognizing that some of it might take more time and skill to execute than others. But there seems to be an alomst violent defensiveness from some of a certain type of bassist and music that takes the form of attacks on more difficult genres or more skilled players. What I'd like to know is whether those attacks are a return of fire, directed at people who, say, hate rock and give it no respect as a legitimate and wonderful form of music and of entertainment, or if they're an expression of not being willing to admit that rock (generally speaking) doesn't challenge the player's talents as much as some other forms of music? Who decided that technically skilled musicians aren't just playing what they want instead of attempting to be cleverly dextrous?

Who built this wall? Who laid the first stone? Which extreme side was it?

[C.Linton]

Are you kidding? This has been going on since music was first invented. It basically boils down to nothing more than "I don't like it, so it's crap." And this kind of thing is not exclusive to music either.

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by C.Linton

Are you kidding? This has been going on since music was first invented. It basically boils down to nothing more than "I don't like it, so it's crap." And this kind of thing is not exclusive to music either.

I get some of that, but this is a site for musicians to discuss music and a specific instrument. Frankly, I wouldn't expect that side of music to rear its ugly head here (maybe I'm naive in that regard), but it has and does. Repeatedly.

And I don't think it boils down to that. I think it boils down to

"I can't play it, so it's crap"

or

"I'm too old/fat/ugly to play it live, so it's crap (they don't call it 'Crap' because the stuff that excited their age group as teenagers is in the same difficulty category as the stuff that excites teenagers today. So they instead call it 'rehashed' and then point and bow to a perceived original "Golden Era" of music that was all the rage when they were young)".

I don't think either take is healthy. So I'm just wondering which side threw the first stone and which side threw it back.

[avvie]

Back in The Day (mid-late 80's) my gf and I were visiting some of her peeps, and there was this one guy there- long haired metal bass player- that spent the entire time ranting at MTV about how every band that appeared on there sucked. And I don't mean just the casual, arrogant "they suck!" but a deep, seething, bile-spewing HATRED for everyone whether it was some death metal band or Motley Crue or Queensryche or whatever. He was cussing, pointing, kicking, hitting things in exasperation at the world's ignorance. I sat there dumbfounded, wondering just what exactly was so special about his playing or his band that gave him the confidence to say that every other band in the world was pure s**t and every listener in the world was braindead.

Since that time- having seen the extreme- I really don't pay much attention to anyone's idea of what good and bad music is, and I hope nobody actually pays attention to my opinions of it either. The same goes for players themselves, though I do have a set of criteria they must abide by:
1- Stay in key
2- Stay in time/meter
3- Don't be inebriated
4- Know the words
If these conditions are met, everything in between is subjectively acceptable.

[avvie]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

If the music on the album fits on one end or the other of a scale of difficulty, the comments tend to either praise or bash the music or the player.

But there seems to be an almost violent defensiveness from some of a certain type of bassist and music that takes the form of attacks on more difficult genres or more skilled players. ....Who decided that technically skilled musicians aren't just playing what they want instead of attempting to be cleverly dextrous?

More to these points, I like to make the Lee/Williams comparison:
Both AC/DC and Rush are legitimate forms of rock entertainment. Would they be the same bands- and would you still like them- if Geddy Lee and Cliff Williams switched places?

I have to play both styles: holding a solid bottom and being "cleverly dextrous", depending upon which band I'm in and the talent level of the players around me. When I'm playing busy, it's just what I feel like doing at the time, but I often temper it by playing entire movements with as few notes as possible if I think it will be dramatic enough.

The "violent defensiveness" can have two possible causes (that I see): either 1) the defensive bassist feels like the technically proficient are frowning upon him/her or 2) a case of professional jealosy- something I've been a victim of myself, and it's really, really stupid.

[BassBob2112]

Originally Posted by avvie

More to these points, I like to make the Lee/Williams comparison:
Both AC/DC and Rush are legitimate forms of rock entertainment. Would they be the same bands- and would you still like them- if Geddy Lee and Cliff Williams switched places?

They would not be the same bands.

Geddy writes the bulk of the music for Rush. Even if you plugged in another bassist of equal playing skills, the music would be nothing like Rush without Geddy. So, no, I wouldn't like Rush.

AC/DC with Geddy...that's interesting. Their songs just don't have the room for his active style of playing. AC/DC is more formulaic and straight ahead blues-based rock. As Gene Simmons said "AC/DC has just one song. Listen to all their music, it's the same song. But WHAT A SONG IT IS !!!!"

I don't get the bashing, unless the music truly lacks any redeeming musical quality. Example: Justin Bieber. LOL !

[walterw]

the actual question is "which came first, bashing in general or the internet?"

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by avvie

More to these points, I like to make the Lee/Williams comparison:
Both AC/DC and Rush are legitimate forms of rock entertainment. Would they be the same bands- and would you still like them- if Geddy Lee and Cliff Williams switched places?

I don't know enough about Cliff Williams to comment on him, but I think Geddy would change his playing somewhat to fit AC/DC. They would not be the same bands. I neither love nor hate AC/DC now, but I'd probably still like Rush if Cliff played more like Geddy while in rush.

I have to play both styles: holding a solid bottom and being "cleverly dextrous", depending upon which band I'm in and the talent level of the players around me. When I'm playing busy, it's just what I feel like doing at the time, but I often temper it by playing entire movements with as few notes as possible if I think it will be dramatic enough.

The "Cleverly dextrous" quote from another poster

(read that whole thread -it's only a couple pages- if you get a chance. It actually made me respond in an ugly way that I don't usually do)

was what got me thinking. Why can't they just be playing music, like whatever band recorded Mustang Sally played music? The assumption from many seems to be that skilled players playing music that calls for skill are "trying to show off". The truth is that the process of honing their technique has likely opened their minds to some things that others don't hear. They're just playing, and they should be free to play what they want without being bashed by people whose musical studies (if they exist) haven't advanced quite as far.

The "violent defensiveness" can have two possible causes (that I see): either 1) the defensive bassist feels like the technically proficient are frowning upon him/her

And "Does the reverse exist?" is the question I keep asking myself.

Is there some bassist out there (or on here) who makes sure to let everyone know that he "doesn't see the need" for blues, country, 60s R&B, root-five playing, eighth note pedaling, flatwounds, nitro, passive, four strings and 15" speakers? If there is, I haven't seen him yet, not in the real world or on this site. But I figure all this hate from the other side had to come from somehwere.

[Mike M.]

It's easy to knock what you don't understand and a good example for me was Metallica. Early on I was never a fan of thier music...never thought they sucked, it's just that thier music wasn't my cup of tea. About 12 years ago my son wanted to go see them so I got tickets and off we went. WOW!!! I didn't know what to expect but as it turns out I was nothing but impressed with how great of a live band they were. Really exceptional!! I first went in with a pre-conceived notion and walked out with a huge amount of respect for them.


Believe it or not, the one and only time I ever walked away from a show saying "that flat out sucked" was after I heard Led Zeppelin for thier Houses of the Holy tour. I loved and still love Zeppelin's music but the night I saw them they were horrid. This wasn't just a bit of an off night like we all have, this was sloppy beyond words. Yeah, they flat out sucked that night. Come to think about it, it's the only show I ever walked out of early.

I don't like bashing unless it's just out and out sloppy playing.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

Is there some bassist out there (or on here) who makes sure to let everyone know that he "doesn't see the need" for blues, country, 60s R&B, root-five playing, eighth note pedaling, flatwounds, nitro, passive, four strings and 15" speakers? If there is, I haven't seen him yet, not in the real world or on this site.

You might find some on the DB side, I think.

Back in the early 70s when I had just "discovered" outside jazz I probably would've agreed with virtually all of those prejudices. While we're at it, who needs amplifiers? Seems like it goes back at least to the invention of equal temperament, but probably much earlier than that even.

As I get more senile, er, older and wiser, live and let live just works better for me. I always was perfectly willing to accept money for amp repairs or mixing shows for people of all stripes, and eventually I figured out that supporting live music nearly always beats not doing so.

[tangentmusic]

Back in the early '70's when I was a teenager, I totally loved Black Sabbath.
I could'nt understand why everyone in the world did not love this band as much as I did.
When Disco came along, I hated it with a passion, but it seemed to be more popular than my beloved Sabbath. I was one of those kids that would bash anything that I did'nt like. I would be very vocal about it too.
The reason: Immuturity on my part.
With age & experience hopefully comes balance. You come to learn there's something for everyone out there, whether we like it or not. Variety is the spice of life. I'm glad there's tons of different styles of music to enjoy.
Oh.. and about Black Sabbath...I have not owned one of their records or CD's in decades. I only listen to them when they come on the radio.
I've grown up & moved on. People that bash players or bands they do not like need to grow up or shut up. I've been there.