Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies

[JimmyM]

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/08...364db5ce92f3f8

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists. How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how awesome they are because they play simply? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use effects? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use more than 4 strings? And God forbid you do anything except play straight fingerstyle!

These are usually the same noodniks who, when asked who their favorite bassists are, they'll name off any number of bassists who stand out in their bands and play flashy...Jaco, Jack (both Bruce and Casady), Jamerson, Vic, Marcus, Rocco, Stanley...but YOU should shut up and play simply. And when you do shut up and play simply, they will villify you for it and call you a "hack."

And inevitably, they will resort to the two most meaningless phrases in music today: "lock in" and "groove":

"Lock in"? Oh, do you mean keep good time? Yeah, I'll do that. Everybody should no matter what instrument you play. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow the drummer's every move. I might even play something diametrically opposed to what the drummer's doing. But it'll sound good, and if it doesn't, I'll try something else till it does. You shouldn't have to play along with the bass drum in lockstep just because you heard some famous bass player use the phrase "lock in with the kick." Go listen to a dude like Jamerson run amok all over the drums and tell me that doesn't sound good. Kick schmick...be a little creative.

As for "groove," that's a word that just makes me ill every time I see it used. Like it's the only thing any bassist should aspire to grasp. What if the music you're playing isn't danceable? What if the music you're playing is written in alternating bars of 7/4 and 6/8? You're going to groove to that? Good luck. Groove when it's appropriate. But if you get called to record someone's speed metal tunes and you play them like it's a groove, don't expect to hear your tracks when the album comes out.

I'm always amused by this story I once heard from a bassist. I'll leave out names because I'm sure he's not the only one who had an experience like this. He said that in his local scene, there was one guy that all the other bass players goofed on for overplaying. They all "respected the groove" and "knew their roles" and this guy didn't. The bassist in question went on to be a very well-respected jazz guy who works all the time and tours the world with top people in the field, and he was the only one in their clique to have a big career.

Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not telling you to start going crazy and making everything all about the bass. Everyone has to find their own voice, and if your voice is simple support and not being noticed, that's cool. Just don't let other bass players define it for you. You don't have to go unnoticed, and it can often sound really good if you don't. And as for those bass players who would like to define your role as they see fit, their role in my world is shutting the hell up

[tekdiver500ft]

While I get what you're saying, I have to disagree with at least some of it. The guys you name as being examples of guys who don't worry about "locking in" or the "groove" all lock in with the drums and groove pretty darn hard. Do they also play other notes? Certainly, but they start with hitting the right ones to keep the rhythm going strong. That, my friend, is the essence of bass. Hit the right notes for the song, embellish as you like, but keep great time with the important beats (could be any particular beat, depending on the genre, so I won't say 1 & 3 or whatever). When you hit the main beat, you better do it at the same time as the drummer (or rather, he should be in time with you). The rest of the time, play what your soul and "voice" tells you to. I'm a pretty simple player (mostly because I'm pretty new to it and not very good), but I have a very strong jazz background, so that is my voice. I'm in a Country band, so I'm "supposed" to play I,V,I,V,I,IV,V... Do I? Sometimes, if that's what the song requires (e.g. Folsom Prison Blues), but there are other songs where I play a very jazz-oriented bass line (e.g. The Chair), because the song's structure allows it. There are songs where I get a bass solo, some I get to come up front and sing, too. I'm no shrinking wall flower, love attention! But even then, I hit the root on the down beat at the same time as the drummer. Why? Because it helps the rest of the band stay tight, and that makes for good music. In the final analysis, it's about the band, not the bass player.

[the Arsonaut]

Thank you. That was groov-I'll stop right there.

The day I let someone who didn't write my part tell me how to play it...
well, I guess that'll be the day I've finally been told...

[jozevgates]

Don't let anyone thats not in your band tell you what or how to play unless you've _asked_ them for advice first. People who are dying to give advice, in my experience, are usually not that good or unpleasant people or both!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by tekdiver500ft

While I get what you're saying, I have to disagree with at least some of it. The guys you name as being examples of guys who don't worry about "locking in" or the "groove" all lock in with the drums and groove pretty darn hard.

You misread, Fritz. Those were guys I named off who are flashy, not non-groovers.

Do they also play other notes? Certainly, but they start with hitting the right ones to keep the rhythm going strong. That, my friend, is the essence of bass. Hit the right notes for the song, embellish as you like, but keep great time with the important beats (could be any particular beat, depending on the genre, so I won't say 1 & 3 or whatever). When you hit the main beat, you better do it at the same time as the drummer (or rather, he should be in time with you). The rest of the time, play what your soul and "voice" tells you to.

Don't you oppress me!

But seriously, it's not all that cut and dried. What if I don't want to hit the main beat with the drummer? What if I think it sounds good to let him hit it and I play on the off beat? Or how about I hit the main beat and he stays off it? I can find examples of each where it works really well. A whole style of reggae came about because of the bass staying off the one. And in many Latin styles, the bass almost never hits a main beat.

[the Arsonaut]

lousy, flashy latin reggae players...won't they ever learn that there's nothing like sounding like an arpeggiator for a kick drum?

[tekdiver500ft]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You misread, Fritz. Those were guys I named off who are flashy, not non-groovers.

Ah, oops.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Don't you oppress me!

I'm not oppressing you! What's the point of fighting for your right to have babies if you can't have babies? You haven't got a womb. Where's the fetus going to gestate, you going to keep it in a box?

~ Life of Brian

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Your comment always triggers that response with me.

[lowfreq33]

I play more notes than most bass players. But I always strive to lock in and groove. The trick is that if you're in the pocket you can get away with a lot. You can also play very few notes and sound terrible if you're not locked in with the rest of the band.

[JimmyM]

I hate buzzwords. Just call it keeping good time

[jmac]

Jimmy,
You write a song called "bassists are they're own worst enemies.' Lol

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I hate buzzwords. Just call it keeping good time

If we all call it "keeping good time" then that will become a buzzword.

Jim

[Not yet]

Inerestin.. To me groove is nothing about hitting the 1.. Play in front of, on the side, and behind the drummer(if he's good enough and don't have to worry about keeping his beat....) , and but to the reggae, comment if it propels the song then in my mind it's working time and groove

When someone tell me I'm working the groove or time always took as a compliment

[TigerInATrance]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/08...364db5ce92f3f8

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists. How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how awesome they are because they play simply? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use effects? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use more than 4 strings? And God forbid you do anything except play straight fingerstyle!

These are usually the same noodniks who, when asked who their favorite bassists are, they'll name off any number of bassists who stand out in their bands and play flashy...Jaco, Jack (both Bruce and Casady), Jamerson, Vic, Marcus, Rocco, Stanley...but YOU should shut up and play simply. And when you do shut up and play simply, they will villify you for it and call you a "hack."

And inevitably, they will resort to the two most meaningless phrases in music today: "lock in" and "groove":

"Lock in"? Oh, do you mean keep good time? Yeah, I'll do that. Everybody should no matter what instrument you play. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow the drummer's every move. I might even play something diametrically opposed to what the drummer's doing. But it'll sound good, and if it doesn't, I'll try something else till it does. You shouldn't have to play along with the bass drum in lockstep just because you heard some famous bass player use the phrase "lock in with the kick." Go listen to a dude like Jamerson run amok all over the drums and tell me that doesn't sound good. Kick schmick...be a little creative.

As for "groove," that's a word that just makes me ill every time I see it used. Like it's the only thing any bassist should aspire to grasp. What if the music you're playing isn't danceable? What if the music you're playing is written in alternating bars of 7/4 and 6/8? You're going to groove to that? Good luck. Groove when it's appropriate. But if you get called to record someone's speed metal tunes and you play them like it's a groove, don't expect to hear your tracks when the album comes out.

I'm always amused by this story I once heard from a bassist. I'll leave out names because I'm sure he's not the only one who had an experience like this. He said that in his local scene, there was one guy that all the other bass players goofed on for overplaying. They all "respected the groove" and "knew their roles" and this guy didn't. The bassist in question went on to be a very well-respected jazz guy who works all the time and tours the world with top people in the field, and he was the only one in their clique to have a big career.

Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not telling you to start going crazy and making everything all about the bass. Everyone has to find their own voice, and if your voice is simple support and not being noticed, that's cool. Just don't let other bass players define it for you. You don't have to go unnoticed, and it can often sound really good if you don't. And as for those bass players who would like to define your role as they see fit, their role in my world is shutting the hell up

+1

I hate having to endure the looks from other bass players and sound guys when I say that I need more bass in the mix. What I need is a sign that says

"I play counter-melodies and outright lead parts from time to time and in order for that to work, I need to be a bit forward in the mix..."

And stop with those looks... Just wait and judge after you hear what I do...

[Clef_de_fa]

Amen to you JimmyM, I'm 100% with you on this one. This is a part of what disgust me about playing bass when I read that kind of stuff here.

[Highs&Lows]

"Groove" (time)... is the most important thing for any musician/instrumentalists..music happens in time, so the placement of the notes on that timeline is essential......a mike brecker solo "grooves", as does thelonios monk when he plays piano, george benson when he sings or name any other great... so of course we bass players have to "groove" as well...
but i have to agree too many bass players are satisfied with too little... music has elements of rhythm, harmony, melody, etc. and as a bass player i also want to be able to reach for those... thats why i think a good bass player, a good musician, should strive for an access to all of those... and play melodies and harmonies as well...why limit yourself? you can always play less? but if you dont learn, you cant play more.
a good solo is a good solo, no matter what instrument its being played on.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists.

Thanks for starting this thread. Other loads of crap - "serve the song," "play what the song calls for," "you're showing off," "I play less notes because I'm more mature." These are all ways of of some sanctimonious, self-righteous blow-hole saying, "I'll decide what is right for everyone."

The problem is that the root/5th police think that everyone has the same goals as they do. They act like there is a single role for bass in all of music. It's like they forget that the great players pushed the role of the bass - Jack Bruce, Chris Squire, Victor Wooten, Jaco and many others. Look at a lot of classic bands and they didn't have bass players that played simple lines - Grand Funk, Cream, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, The Faces.

My brother likes to say, "If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes." If you want to sit back, play root/5th and support everyone else, have fun. Just don't tell me that I have to choose that role too.

We should be encouraging players that want to push the role of the bass and think for themselves. I don't know why some people are so frightened of people that do things differently.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Other loads of crap - "serve the song," "play what the song calls for," "you're showing off," .

Why is serving the song a load of crap?

I do agree with the theme of Jimmy M's post. There is a "Do as I say; not as I do attitude among many musicians. And not just bass players.

Also, as has been said above, "groove" is to me an almost non-mathematical timing and feel between all of the players - much more than simply landing on "1".

[Stevewd]

"Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies"

Seems like you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing others of doing. You've already put yourself on a "side". Those who think differently are on the "other side". Who cares what words are used to describe something? It's just jargon. It occurs in every field. It's like shorthand language. When you say "groove" instantly other musicians understand what you mean. And groove does not mean you necessarily lock in with the kick.

[JimmyM]

When I hear the word "groove," I think "danceable" and "funky." Does it mean that to everyone else?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Why is serving the song a load of crap?

Serving the song isn't a load of crap. What's turned it into a load of crap, though, is people interpreting it to mean "the bass player does nothing to call attention to himself." Good intentions misinterpreted by nimrods.