Carol Kaye

jhfva · #1 06-12-2005, 04:21 AM

If you don't know about her website, here it is:

http://www.carolkaye.com/

Mr.Phil · #2 06-12-2005, 06:38 AM

I know who she is, but I take issue with her credibility... She claims to have played bass on some very well known tunes that Jamerson did. She tries to take credit for classic Jamerson lines. Just look at her list of bass songs. I don't doubt she is a good bass player, I just think its wrong to try to take credit for lines she didn't create.

Mr.Phil · #3 06-12-2005, 07:03 AM

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks
Look here for more info. Scroll down unitl you get to the article about who played on "I was Made to Love Her"

JimmyM · #4 06-12-2005, 02:51 PM

First off, whether you believe Carol or Allen Slutsky, there is no doubt that Carol is a world class bassist and guitarist. The list of stuff that she absolutely played on is staggering. As for the controversy, both Carol and Slutsky have agendas. And they both have witnesses to back up their claims. So I'm calling it a push. We'll probably never know the whole truth, but I think there's more to what Carol is claiming than Slutsky is giving her credit for. I have to tell you, a lot of those lines she claims she played do sound like her style. I think if you put the two stories together, you have the truth somewhere in the middle.

However, Carol does herself no favors. As long as you agree with everything she says and never ever dare question her, she is a wonderful person. The moment you question her, or suggest that anyone else could even come 1/10 as close to what she and her musician friends accomplished, she shows this angry side that's well past the point that it should be. I went on her website as a huge fan and I loved how she took the time to answer everyone who posted. I left after getting my head handed to me several times because the questions I asked her weren't phrased in ways that she felt gave her the proper respect, or I would use terms that she construed as insults even though nothing was farther from the truth.

That, of course, doesn't mean I don't believe her to some degree. And it doesn't mean her accomplishments should be taken any less seriously. Carol's probably done more for the advancement of electric bass than anyone.

Mr.Phil · #5 06-12-2005, 03:38 PM

Perhaps... But I still say those are Jamerson lines. She's a competant player no doubt, but are you trying to tell me Bernadette sounds like her style? I always think "Beach Boys" pop music when I think Carol Kaye, not deep funky groove. Think what you like, but I maintain my stance. Others feel free to weigh in.

EDIT: Besides, if she really played on all those songs, she would have defined the Mowtown sound. Strange some one that great would have been left out of the "Standing in the Shadows of Mowtown" Documentary, they included everyone else...

**Josh Ryan** · #6 06-12-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Phil

Perhaps... But I still say those are Jamerson lines. She's a competant player no doubt, but are you trying to tell me Bernadette sounds like her style? I always think "Beach Boys" pop music when I think Carol Kaye, not deep funky groove. Think what you like, but I maintain my stance. Others feel free to weigh in.

EDIT: Besides, if she really played on all those songs, she would have defined the Mowtown sound. Strange some one that great would have been left out of the "Standing in the Shadows of Mowtown" Documentary, they included everyone else...

No need to get into this quagmire again.

I agree with you BTW. My ears, and just looking at the evidence logically agree.

JimmyM · #7 06-13-2005, 02:38 AM

Actually, to my ears, "Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her" sound almost identical to Carol's style when she cuts loose. She uses a lot of quick staccato riffs and busy funk in her playing. I see no reason she couldn't have played those songs. I can't tell if there's a pick or not, but I think they could have been played with a pick.

As for why she wasn't on the show, I think Carol thinks it was mostly because Slutsky didn't want a white woman playing those heavy riffs, but I think it's because she wasn't part of the Funk Brothers. Slutsky's agenda was profiling the Funk Brothers. Bob Babbitt and Dennis Coffey were a part of the recording in Detroit and Carol never was.

Like I said, we may never know for sure who played what, but between Carol's fuzzy studio logs (not always her fault because a lot of her demo sessions that became masters had the songs with different names and performers listed for the session), and Slutsky not even being there but relying on secondhand information that was probably just as fuzzy as Carol's, I'm more inclined to believe there's some truth to what Carol says. I don't believe she played on everything that's in dispute, but I had always thought she proved she played on "I Was Made To Love Her," if not anything else.

Oh well, one thing's for sure...none of us were there so we're all just spitballing. I won't let it affect my enjoyment of the songs.

Mr.Phil · #8 06-13-2005, 09:11 AM

Well, I guess I'm just a diehard Jamerson fan, and you're a diehard Carol Kaye fan. I think if Mr.Jamerson were still alive, a little more light could be shed on this topic. We both agree that the songs in question have great bass lines, and are all played in the same style... As for the pick problem, I'm going to say that those songs were played finger style, it just sounds too round to be played any other way. Anyway, these are some great bass lines that everyone should know...

ryco · #9 06-13-2005, 09:20 AM

I love both Capol and James. I was made to love them! I don't know why Carol said what she did when she did. Gotta forgive her though. I can always tell Carol 'cause she had that Boogaloo style goin' on. Jamerson had those slippery lil' ghost notes happenin' Like the other guy said both made MAJOR contributions to rock/pop! After Gordy moved everything to LaLa land I would bet it was Carol. I don't think James was there very long. "Made to Love Her" sounds like Carol to me -- but I could be wrong

eldave777 · #10 06-13-2005, 10:11 AM

Carol played on SHAFT right? That's funky enough.

Ben Rose · #11 06-13-2005, 10:22 AM

Did anybody else here the solo bassline recording of Carol on the Bassics magazine sampler recording a few years back? (I think it was issue 31 or 28) Wow..what an amazing feel.

OiBass · #12 06-13-2005, 10:42 AM

I dig her work on them "Love Boat" episodes-

Brad Johnson · #13 06-13-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldave777

Carol played on SHAFT right? That's funky enough.

The bassline to Shaft was funky?

msquared · #14 06-13-2005, 11:40 AM

Did Jamerson play on any of the California Motown stuff? I know he moved out there, but obviously he didn't do much after the move.

ryco · #15 06-13-2005, 12:22 PM

I thought I heard Anthony Jackson say he played on Shaft. You know what credit mongers bass players can be!!

Mel Monihan · #16 06-13-2005, 12:43 PM

+1 to JimmyM.
Carol is a monster player who has done unbelievable things for the bass,and for bass playing. I too used to go to her site as an avid fan, but I too was slapped around badly for exactly the same kind of "insult" Kenny speaks of. Carol is very diligent in the notes she takes on her sessions, and many of the people on her site are as knowledgeable of the recording industry and its credits as she is, and if she says she played on Bernadette, then she probably did.One problem that she actually states is that Barry Gordy and company recorded many tracts in both Detroit and L.A., so maybe her track was not the one actually used on that particular recording.
As for funky, Ms. Kaye can be as funky as anyone, and all with a pick.The whole truth may never be known as previously stated, but you certainly can't take anything away from Carol, she may just be THE most recorded bass player in history, and that in itself has to say alot.

Mr.Phil · #17 06-13-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msquared

Did Jamerson play on any of the California Motown stuff? I know he moved out there, but obviously he didn't do much after the move.

Yes, he did, including the Sylvers top ten hit "Boogie Fever". Anyway, the two songs that keep coming up were Detroit recordings anyways.
"I was Made to Love Her" is of the 1968 Stevie Wonder album "I was Made to Love her" (Origionally recorded in 1967) and "Bernadette" is off the 1967 Four Tops album "Reach Out". Anyway, most of the songs in question were recorded pre 1970 in DETROIT and before Jamerson's 1973 West Coast move. The West Coast producers used a bassisit named Ron Brown, he played in Jamerson's Style.

Mr.Phil · #18 06-13-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel Monihan

+1 to JimmyM.
Carol is a monster player who has done unbelievable things for the bass,and for bass playing. I too used to go to her site as an avid fan, but I too was slapped around badly for exactly the same kind of "insult" Kenny speaks of. Carol is very diligent in the notes she takes on her sessions, and many of the people on her site are as knowledgeable of the recording industry and its credits as she is, and if she says she played on Bernadette, then she probably did.One problem that she actually states is that Barry Gordy and company recorded many tracts in both Detroit and L.A., so maybe her track was not the one actually used on that particular recording.
As for funky, Ms. Kaye can be as funky as anyone, and all with a pick.The whole truth may never be known as previously stated, but you certainly can't take anything away from Carol, she may just be THE most recorded bass player in history, and that in itself has to say alot.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Carol Kaye, I'm just trying to give credit where it is due. In response to the "most recorded bass player in history"... I believe that distinction belongs to Ron Carter, he has played on over 2,000 albums.

jerry · #19 06-13-2005, 06:37 PM

Carol is a great player, and has a amazing catalog of songs she has done.......I used to really respect her, now I think she is just a crazy senile old bat

Mel Monihan · #20 06-13-2005, 07:04 PM

Ms. Kaye suggests that the Detroit boys were recording in L.A. long before the "move" to L.A. ,and that most of the people who played on those recordings did so "under the table", and that it was widespread.I believe she states 10,000 recording dates in her bio. Carol played on many T.V. and movie scores as well as artists recordings.Go to her site for the complete rundown, it is pretty staggering to see what she has done in her carear.I believe Treena knows her quite well and is very familiar with her backround.