Carol Kaye

fcleff · #1 07-23-2006, 08:40 PM

This may start a few fires but here it goes anyway.

I have know for quite some time about the controversy surrounding Carol Kaye. She claims to have played on a majority of Motown hits that are generally credited to James Jamerson.

I checked out her website today (my interest was spurred by a mention of her in another thread) and she does, indeed, claim to be the bassist on at least several well known Jamerson lines. She also claims extensive (very extensive) credits on other recordings record, t.v., movies, and commercials alike.

Up until about a year ago, when I stumbled across mention of her on the web, I had never heard of her. I have been playing for quite a while (20+ years) too. What is the validity to her credit and why would she claim to play so many lines that were credited to Jamerson? Just curious.

SBassman · #2 07-23-2006, 08:46 PM

I think she deserves respect and a place in bass history.

Could there be errors in who is claiming what tunes?
Possibly.
But there really is No Doubt that she played on many hits in history and created some great stuff on the spot.

Rather than look at the details of any specific dispute, I look at the big picture. And the big picture is clear.

The woman could play, the woman could perform, and the woman was an important part of lots of great work in history.

Delberthot · #3 07-23-2006, 08:48 PM

The mains reason is that when Motown moved from Detroit to LA, JJ didn't want to leave and so for a brief period there were 2 studios running at the same time and controversy where one artist would play something in one of the studios which would then be written and played by the other. (this is from what I remember when reading an article about her a few years back so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

The most contentious was " I was Made to Love Her" by Stevie Wonder in 1967 with both players claiming to have played the track.

Carol played on a lot of sessions for movie and TV sound tracks and did a lot of the bass work for the Doors.

**j-raj** · #4 07-23-2006, 09:24 PM

jobo4 · #5 07-23-2006, 09:28 PM

Carol also did a bunch of historically significant Beach Boys sessions from the Pet Sounds and Smile era. However, IIRC she plays almost exclusively with a pick. That palm-muted-bridge-thick-fundamental-tone-uber-punch was pioneered by her in the sixties rock/soul scene though it was being used a lot in country at the time.

So tmalss, to determine if Ms. Kaye played on a particular cut, they usually try to determine if a pick was employed. If there was no pick, she probably didn't do it.

James Hart · #6 07-23-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j-raj

this one is all you bro! I was here to close it because I won't have time to clean up the ugly... it will turn ugly

it always does

jobo4 · #7 07-23-2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Hart

this one is all you bro! I was here to close it because I won't have time to clean up the ugly... it will turn ugly

it always does

I guess I'm missing something...

James Hart · #8 07-23-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jobo4

I guess I'm missing something...

yes a couple years worth prior to April 2006

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59748

Carol Kaye

Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

jamerson or kaye,who influenced your playing more?

Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?

Carol Kaye

that's just a few of the highlights

Delberthot · #9 07-23-2006, 10:01 PM

There are definite JJ and CK fanbases and both players fans have definite ideas about who played what. That is why it could turn ugly.

i forgot about Carol doing the Beach Boys stuff

LoveThatBass · #10 07-23-2006, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delberthot

There are definite JJ and CK fanbases and both players fans have definite ideas about who played what. That is why it could turn ugly.

i forgot about Carol doing the Beach Boys stuff

She did the Studio cut of "Good Vibrations" by the Beach Boys and "The Beat goes on" by Sonny and Cher among others.

SundanceChile · #11 07-23-2006, 10:11 PM

Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, one laid down the track, but it got scrapped leaving the other to lay down the track we all know and love?

jobo4 · #12 07-23-2006, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Hart

yes a couple years worth prior to April 2006

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59748

Carol Kaye

Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

jamerson or kaye,who influenced your playing more?

Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?

Carol Kaye

that's just a few of the highlights

Thanks James. I believe I'll crawl off to another forum now.

**j-raj** · #13 07-23-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Hart

this one is all you bro! I was here to close it because I won't have time to clean up the ugly... it will turn ugly

it always does

that's cool... I'll watch this one.

steveb98 · #14 07-23-2006, 10:35 PM

I say listen to a lot of Carol Kaye's work, she is good. She played with a pick, even when used to teach she would ENCOURAGE student to use a pick. Listen to her note selection in general.

Now do the same with Jamerson. His sound with "the hook" and his note selection.

Now go listen to the songs in question and decide for yourself who did what.

Things to think about in their note selection. Carol Kaye was a Jazz guitarist before playing bass. In fact she is back to playing guitar, age is catching up with her and guitar is easier to handle. Jamerson was a string bass player who moved to electric. I think his note selection reflects that.

Also Motown and other labels at the time were rolling in money and would cut songs over and over sometimes with different musicians. So Carol could of been on a song and her track wasn't the one they kept. And vica-versa with Jamerson.

Bottom line they both were pioneers in electric bass and deserve our repect.

markjazzbassist · #15 07-23-2006, 10:39 PM

who was carol kaye? can anyone give me brief bio? was she one of the first woman bassists to get recognition? What kinda axe did she play? How did she get involved with motown?

James Hart · #16 07-23-2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjazzbassist

who was carol kaye? can anyone give me brief bio? was she one of the first woman bassists to get recognition? What kinda axe did she play? How did she get involved with motown?

she was an LA session guitarist that filled in on bass in the early 60s and became a first call bassist through the 70s.

She played "Fender Bass"

She wasn't laying tracks for Motown till after they moved to LA.

She also wrote a few "How To" books (I got my start on one of them).

I repect the works she's done, I question some she's claimed... it's common knowledge that records are vague and many track were often done at different times by different players... It was a break neck pace of pumping out songs

fish slapper · #17 07-23-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjazzbassist

who was carol kaye? can anyone give me brief bio? was she one of the first woman bassists to get recognition? What kinda axe did she play? How did she get involved with motown?

Any bass player worth their salt needs to know this lady. Its one of the sad facts that we all have heard her work for years and never knew it. She even did the studio work for the Beach Boys because Brian Wilson knew a. She was a better bass player than him and b. she was a good reader so she could handle the parts he would write out note for note. Another great legend is that Glen Campbell borrowed Carol's baritone Dano for the signature licks in "Wichita Lineman".

I didn't realize until I discovered this thread that she was such a conduit for contraversy.

markjazzbassist · #18 07-23-2006, 10:58 PM

thanks for the info guys.

lhoward · #19 07-24-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish slapper

Any bass player worth their salt needs to know this lady. Its one of the sad facts that we all have heard her work for years and never knew it. She even did the studio work for the Beach Boys because Brian Wilson knew a. She was a better bass player than him and b. she was a good reader so she could handle the parts he would write out note for note. Another great legend is that Glen Campbell borrowed Carol's baritone Dano for the signature licks in "Wichita Lineman".

I didn't realize until I discovered this thread that she was such a conduit for contraversy.

Actually, I think this thread briefly shows that perceived controversy is a result of lack of knowledge; a condition which may be remedied by research and realizing that the two musicians in discussion here are wonderful gifts to all us listeners of their work. The similar remarks of James Hart and steveb98 that Motown (and probably other recording studios as well) may have re-recorded songs with different musicians further lends weight that a perceived controversy is rather pointless.

The other remarks of steveb98 regarding individual playing styles represents another research vehicle to appreciate who may be the musician on a particular recording session where there may be a question of identity.

The question of knowing who the side musicians are on recordings has been a long-time problem with some recording studios not keeping decent records of sidemen used. It is possible to know who played, but that involves personal information, but not obtainable, of payment records and whether they were kept by individual recording session payment or as a general time-period payment to a musician under contract to a studio.

Carol Kaye and James Jamerson - two exceptional bassists that have greatly enriched this bassist's life.

Lloyd Howard

bassist15 · #20 07-24-2006, 11:40 AM

CArol Kaye definetly played great ont he Beach Boys. Some other stuff she claims , is sketchy. Ive read a bunch of books about the Doors and they never once mention Carol Kaye . She claims to have played on the song "Light MY fire" , the Doors only used one session guy on that album , and it wasnt her. She also said about the doors , that the real memembers didnt even have anythign to do with the music . It was all recorded and sung by session musicians. The Doors are one of my favorite bands and this thing that she said really doesnt make me a fan of her , but her work with the beach boys is great.