Carol Kaye

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by BassLand

This is a story from SITSOM which is apparently true as it was the Funk Brothers talking about it and there's no doubt they were there (or are they all lying too?). Remember when 45rpm records were a dollar?

First, can I ask you to not try to polarize this issue by making issues more extreme than they are and making simple questions into accusations they were all lying.

Second, if you are going to suggest that the word of the people who were there for the recording but not the mixing should be taken as gospel wouldn't this same courtesy apply to Carol?

In the Bob Babbitt quote from earlier it appears JJ himself didn't know what songs he was on. (Unless Bob Babbitt is a liar )

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by The Penguin

In the Bob Babbitt quote from earlier it appears JJ himself didn't know what songs he was on. (Unless Bob Babbitt is a liar )

No, what the quote suggests is that he was wrong about the song Cool Jerk. And that's about it. It says nothing about the validity or lack thereof of CK's claim to all those other songs. At best, it might make that claim slightly more possible ... but as noted, possible doesn't equate to plausible or likely or probable or certain. At best, it would be indirect evidence, if that.

In the ongoing absence of any positive evidence for CK's claim--which I notice no one here has done anything to remedy--I respectfully suggest that comments like Babbitt's do not make CK's claim any more likely. Again, where is the person (engineer, artist, fellow musician, producer, arranger, gofer, whoever), other than CK herself, who will stand up and say, yeah, she did those tracks? IOW, where's the smoking gun? Just saying, as some have done, well, maybe it coulda happened this way if this was the case and that happened and this other thing took place ... well, that's not much of an argument, and it doesn't prove diddly. OTOH, for example, Stevie Wonder says Jamerson cut I Was Made To Love Her. He ought to know.

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by Basshole

As if the obvious sonic cues of pick vs. no pick and clearly defined styles weren't enough proof to even the casual listener, considerable evidence is mounting pretty heavily now to contest CK's claims. People have come forward to set the record straight.

I can't believe there's still this much of a push behind these claims, however, as it's now become rather clear and obvious. It's now reaching the level of embarrassment, and frankly, I think it's sad that someone with so many wonderful REAL credits should have her memory besmirched by such things.

I think Carol should stop defending this dubious position, and rest on her otherwise considerable laurels as a great bassist.

Thanks for stating things as your opinion and not as absolutes It allows the discussion to go further.

I've watched interviews with the Stones where they argued amongst themselves who wrote or played what. My point here is that taking the memory decades later of someone who wasn't there the whole way is simply not proof.

Since it's often difficult to look at something rationally while one is heavily invested in it let's look at the art world. There are numerous examples of forgeries hanging in museums like the Louvre and other respected museums for decades. During these times the "experts" will lecture about how this clearly represents the work of a particular artist and no one else could match this and they'll write reviews and articles going on and on about how singular this style is. Then it will be exposed as a forgery. To keep things real interesting sometimes forgeries are re-certified as authentic or as from a disciple and therefore somehow kosher.

From what I understand there is only one party claiming to have written records of the dates, I would think that should have some value.

Also why not consider the possibility that some of the tracks CK claims are hers and some aren't? Does reality have to be so binary?

And to the pick thing being so obvious, Geddy Lee and Chris Squire have inspired a good number of incorrect guesses over the years. Sometimes it's obvious but at least to me many times it's not. I keep asking about the Hicky Burr because it has a bounce I associate with alternate picking but I can get that tone with my fingers and an EQ.

[Basshole]

So, in lieu of positive corroborative evidence, you offer excessive blathering? I guess if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance...

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

So where's the positive evidence for Carol's claim?

Do you mean the written record of the recording dates and the union records? Do these exist for Jamerson? I think there is much positive evidence for both sides, and if one is willing to look at all of it with out being selective the conclusion should be we can't say for sure.

I feel absolute claims on either side are sketchy and both sides have convincing arguments, sometimes we just don't know everything whether we like it or not.

IMHO

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by The Penguin

My point here is that taking the memory decades later of someone who wasn't there the whole way is simply not proof.

Nor is taking the word of someone who can't prove she was there. I mean, that's the whole point at issue. IS there reason to believe she was there when the final bass tracks for those songs were cut? Where's the evidence other than her word?

And as for being there, we KNOW Stevie was there for IWMTLH. He says it was Jamerson. We don't know CK was there at all. Where does the weight of the evidence lie?

Originally Posted by The Penguin

From what I understand there is only one party claiming to have written records of the dates, I would think that should have some value.

From what I understand, she has records of SOME dates for versions of those songs, not necessarily THE dates. As we know, Motown songs were often cut multiple times by different artists or by the same artists for different occasions (e.g., TV specials), mainly to increase publishing revenue, apparently.

Originally Posted by The Penguin

Also why not consider the possibility that some of the tracks CK claims are hers and some aren't?

Sure, many things are possible. But any such claim should have some positive evidence behind it. And which songs in particular, and why those and not others? As a friend of mine was fond of saying, "coulda" ain't "did." The question isn't what's theoretically possible; the question is what's likely or probable.

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Carol Kaye is an amazing woman and great player. She was an electric bass pioneer and was among the most successful studio musicians in the 60's and 70's playing on hundreds of rock and pop records as well as numerous tv, movie and jingle dates. She sight reads anything.
She seems to also suffer from some possible mental illness as she has been trying to take credit for Jamersons motown work.
Listen to the Basscast 25, the guest host is Joe Osborn. He addresses this very topic.
The sad part is that this player has accomplishments that send her to the bass hall of fame without having to embellish anything about her career. Sad really.

Why does Osborn's story have more weight than someone who was there? I keep hearing about how how he said this so it's true, what makes his word more correct than hers?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by The Penguin

Do you mean the written record of the recording dates and the union records?

No, because all those indicate is that she did some work for Motown on some version of those songs, which as I said in another thread proves little in the case of Motown. What I mean is some first-person evidence that she did the tracks. Some artist, producer, arranger, engineer, songwriter, musician, or whoever who was there and will attest to it. Even one person! AFAIK, all the surviving people say the opposite.

So no, I don't think that both sides have a lot of positive evidence. It seems clear to me that one side has the bulk of it.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by The Penguin

Why does Osborn's story have more weight than someone who was there? I keep hearing about how how he said this so it's true, what makes his word more correct than hers?

Who says she was "there"? That's exactly the point that's contested! You're accepting her claim as gospel. Whether she was there is precisely the point at issue, and it hasn't been proven. We know she did session work for Motown in LA, we don't know that she did the clasic tracks she claims to have done. Why should CK's word be accepted if she can't prove she did those tracks?

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

No, what the quote suggests is that he was wrong about the song Cool Jerk. And that's about it. It says nothing about the validity or lack thereof of CK's claim to all those other songs. At best, it might make that claim slightly more possible ... but as noted, possible doesn't equate to plausible or likely or probable or certain. At best, it would be indirect evidence, if that.

But it does show that even JJ himself can't tell if it's him all the time which is what I said. If he can't definitively recognize himself it seems unlikely someone else can do an even better job.

Just saying, as some have done, well, maybe it coulda happened this way if this was the case and that happened and this other thing took place ... well, that's not much of an argument, and it doesn't prove diddly. OTOH, for example, Stevie Wonder says Jamerson cut I Was Made To Love Her. He ought to know.

He should know but there are many examples of artists not knowing who played on their records. And that's not an insult or attack on the artists integrity.

I think many people here are forgetting that I said I side with JJ but my lack of unwaivering faith is leading some to think I'm against them instead of with them. Also there is much interchanging of the terms evidence and proof when they should be separate terms and not freely mixed.

[The Penguin]

Originally Posted by Basshole

So, in lieu of positive corroborative evidence, you offer excessive blathering? I guess if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance...

It appears you just want to go personal and ignore all the positive things I've said about you and your arguments and the examples I've mentioned over and over. Challenging faith can be a real scary thing.

[James Hart]

THIS is why this topic just gets closed... speculations and conspiracy theories turn to personal attacks and random useless tangents.

I think it's time all y'all just STFU and go play some bass (or in the case of some members... go listen to some bass).

Carol vs James vs Bobby vs Joe??? vs who cares topics are officially closed.