Carol Kaye and Electric Bass

[DeanT]

I remember using the Filiberto book when I was starting out in the mid-'70s. I still have his "Playing Electric Bass from Chord Symbols" books. That one was from 1978.

[JTE]

I THINK the bass in the Filiberto book published by Mel Bay is a Hagstrom. I used that book to teach from for a long time, simply because there wasn't any thing better out there for a LONG time.

So, Ron Carter was listed on "Fender Bass" even though his electric was a Rick.

jte

[RED5]

I recall reading that the Musiciaon's Union referred to it as a "fenderbass" to differentiate between double and electric bass players. The first time I saw it called a "Fenderbass" was the credits for the 67 debut album for Blood sweat & Tears, Jim Fielder was listed that way. I have an old Popular Science mag,1930's or so, that has the "Radio Guitar" ( a Frying Pan Ric) displayed on it's new page. That wouldv'e been a cooler name....Radiobass, try it.....

[bggeezer]

I think, logically speaking, it was called a "Fender Bass" in the 50s to distinguish it from a double bass. The name stuck till the early 60s, when other manufacturers like Rickenbacker and Gretsch started making bases in 1957 and 1964 respectively. Then it started to be called an electric bass by musicians and makers.

However... : That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet

Romeo and Juliet, Act II, Scene II

[JimK]

Originally Posted by JTE

So, Ron Carter was listed on "Fender Bass" even though his electric was a Rick.

Really?! All these years & I just assumed it was a Fender P-bass...I woulda sworn I had seen a picture of Carter with a sunburst P w/ a maple neck.
Those Grover Washington albums & Miles' Miles In The Sky....is Carter on a Ric?

[GlennW]

Carol's claim that she coined the phrase in 1969 is just plain ridiculous, no matter who she is or what she's done. Someone in the '40s likely said something like, "Gee, since they have electric guitars wouldn't it be nice if they made an electric bass".

[RalphL]

When I started playing in the early 1970's we called it a bass guitar.
Carol's claim is just a bit too much. It is like the people from Gillette saying they started the usage of the word "twin" to describe their double blade system; ok, perhaps you did, but it is OBVIOUS and of little note. It is like calling an apple red for the first time; so what? Genius? Nope. Could someone have used that language but never published it? Was it not in usage AT ALL before she published her book? Carol has so many accolades that it is demeaning to mention such a questionable trivial point with such hubris.

Besides, it was Al Gore who coined the term just before he invented the internet!

[Caca de Kick]

When the Jazz Bass a came out in 1960, the headstock decal said 'Fender Jazz Bass' with 'Electric Bass' also on there.
And proof of '50s ads floating around also calling it an electric bass can be easily found online.
Clearly the term existed before she picked up a bass in '63.

[Howlin' Hanson]

What does Leo's original patent say?

(I don't have time to look right now, but I bet someone here will take this challenge and run with it...)

[Bluesy Soul]

What is the big whoop?

"Carol Kaye makes another hyperbolic statement--in a women's magazine, no less. STOP THE PRESSES!" Is this really news to anyone?

And what is the relevance of all the vintage ads, "Leo Fender says...", "Find out what the patent says...", etc.? If the quote cited in the original post is the entire basis for this tempest in hash pipe, Carol certainly did NOT say she invented or was the first to utter the phrase. All she said was that she renamed it for her well-known and respected series of instruction books which are, after all, entitled "Electric Bass". She didn't say she coined it for the first time or forever after or for all purposes.

Among Carol's contemporaries in the 60s (the LA recording and movie/TV score scene), the prevalent phrase was "Fender bass". The autobiographies of Quincy Jones and many others confirms that. It doesn't mean that in NYC or in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo or in western Iowa (where I grew up and first learned to play bass) we weren't also using the phrase "electric bass" or "electric guitar", and nothing in the original post quote indicates Carol intended that. Is it possible the interviewer for Woman magazine wasn't knowledgeable enough about her subject to ask more definitive questions?

I'm sure it doesn't matter to those of you who are so desperate and impatient to proclaim your indignance; but over the 55-year history of the instrument, in all its applications and settings, I believe Carol Kaye has been as influential as any other single individual--including James Jamerson, Jaco Pastorius, Larry Graham and the many other innovators who also have my undying admiration for their contributions.

And guess what? They all have or had their human shortcomings. What do we accomplish by seizing upon these shortcomings and speculating about unspoken intent in every quote or action? I'll get my information directly from Carol herself, thank you, and then evaluate it based on my knowledge and research--not an ambiguous statement made in Woman magazine.

Bluesy Soul

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by Bluesy Soul

What is the big whoop?

If the quote cited in the original post is the entire basis for this tempest in hash pipe, Carol certainly did NOT say she invented or was the first to utter the phrase. All she said she was that she renamed it for her well-known and respected series of instruction books which are, after all, entitled "Electric Bass". She didn't say she coined it for the first time or forever after or for all purposes.

Is it possible the interviewer for Woman magazine wasn't knowledgeable enough about her subject to ask more definitive questions?

Bluesy Soul

+1 Well said, Bluesy Soul. When I read the the first post in this thread, that's exactly how I interpreted it as well. Thanks for posting your comments. I started, but got involved in something else.

[RalphL]

"Re-naming" it is "coining" a phrase. One cannot rename something if the name already exists.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by DeanT

Let me first say that I respect Carol Kaye as a pioneering bass player and have learned a lot from her books. But sometimes she goes into the revisionist history a bit too far.

In a recent interview with Woman magazine, she takes credit for naming the "Fender Bass" the "Electric Bass."

I don't know if this is true or not. But knowing Carol's penchant for overstatement when it comes to the history of the bass, I suspect she is remembering things a bit differently than they occurred.

"I liked playing the Fender Bass ....I later named it the "Electric Bass" with my first book "How To Play The Electric Bass" which I wrote myself and published it with my own publishing company, Gwyn (named after my youngest child) Publishing Co. Inc., in 1969 started on my kitchen table and with more books I wrote and published on others like Joe Pass, Emil Richards, Abe Most, Clare Fischer, too I formed the Corporation then and trained employees of my co. The Musician Union Chapters all adopted my name, Electric Bass, for this instrument rather than using "Fender Bass" in their Directories and the name caught on with all the professionals too."

She doesn't take credit for naming it the electric bass for the whole planet. Just with the designation in the union directory. Back then we all called it a bass and when asked further said electric. It was never referred to as a bass guitar.

The older musicians, the upright players and particularly jazz musicians called it usually the Fender bass, whether it was a Fender or not. That is true. Not only where I grew up but every city I went to. Some of the jazz guys I hung out with in the early 60s called it "the cheater" occasionally.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by Bluesy Soul

What is the big whoop?

"Carol Kaye makes another hyperbolic statement--in a women's magazine, no less. STOP THE PRESSES!" Is this really news to anyone?

And what is the relevance of all the vintage ads, "Leo Fender says...", "Find out what the patent says...", etc.? If the quote cited in the original post is the entire basis for this tempest in hash pipe, Carol certainly did NOT say she invented or was the first to utter the phrase. All she said was that she renamed it for her well-known and respected series of instruction books which are, after all, entitled "Electric Bass". She didn't say she coined it for the first time or forever after or for all purposes.

Among Carol's contemporaries in the 60s (the LA recording and movie/TV score scene), the prevalent phrase was "Fender bass". The autobiographies of Quincy Jones and many others confirms that. It doesn't mean that in NYC or in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo or in western Iowa (where I grew up and first learned to play bass) we weren't also using the phrase "electric bass" or "electric guitar", and nothing in the original post quote indicates Carol intended that. Is it possible the interviewer for Woman magazine wasn't knowledgeable enough about her subject to ask more definitive questions?

I'm sure it doesn't matter to those of you who are so desperate and impatient to proclaim your indignance; but over the 55-year history of the instrument, in all its applications and settings, I believe Carol Kaye has been as influential as any other single individual--including James Jamerson, Jaco Pastorius, Larry Graham and the many other innovators who also have my undying admiration for their contributions.

And guess what? They all have or had their human shortcomings. What do we accomplish by seizing upon these shortcomings and speculating about unspoken intent in every quote or action? I'll get my information directly from Carol herself, thank you, and then evaluate it based on my knowledge and research--not an ambiguous statement made in Woman magazine.

Bluesy Soul

Well said. I think we all just have to get back to playing our electric basses or bass guitars, if you want to call it that, and quit endlessly discussing inconsequential matters or spending our time running down someone's reputation.