The chops myth.

[Not yet]

Always interesting to hear shots at the old folks here about not having chops because we don't stay at home wood shedding all nite in our parents basement

We're out playing paid gigs and we the parents..... Course wasn't much different when we were the teenagers

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by Not yet

Always interesting to hear shots at the old folks here about not having chops because we don't stay at home wood shedding all nite in our parents basement

We're out playing paid gigs and we the parents..... Course wasn't much different when we were the teenagers

No one was taking shots at you for not having chops, I was calling out people who in my opinion were promoting ignorance of their craft. Not having chops and disregarding chops are two different things. Of course it's alright to be content with what you have if you're a working parent.

[IronLung1986]

Originally Posted by Swipter

From what I hear, Ironlung1986 has chops...

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I wasn't trying to boast, I was just explaining how annoying it is to be ridiculed for trying to add some tasteful flair to my playing. It's like being made fun of for getting good grades in school.

[Epitaph04]

Originally Posted by LikeRaphael

Another is Myung from Dream Theater -- he can play a lot of notes real fast, but there's no interesting phrasing, no melodicism and no groove.
Sorry to all who are fans. It's all Tupacs fault.

Trial of Tears, Lifting Shadows off a Dream, Scarred, Under a Glass Moon, Learning to Live, Lines in the Sand, etc etc

You can also youtube Solar Groove and Free Port Jam. The latter does have what some of you would call "noodling" in the verses, but aside from that its great playing by John Myung.

You can also check out his playing on Jelly Jam material.

[fourfinger]

Originally Posted by adambomb

ACDC does groove they groove in ACDC's way. groove, to me groove doesn't mean a particular kind of music it means can you...... "play music"

I agree, and I think the same applies to chops. Being a musician means having both Chops and Groove, because all music demands both.

Pedaling eighth notes musically for long periods, might seem easy or insignificant if you haven't tried it before... It always seemed that way to me, until I actually had to do it.

Repetitive bass lines require their own kind of groove, and their own kind of chops, too.

[kreider204]

Everyone needs groove.
Everyone needs just enough chops to play the music they want to play. Whether anyone else wants to hear it - that's another question ...

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by LikeRaphael

HAHA, that's a sure fire way to get hate hurled one's way. And of course, it's subjective, isn't it?

Okay, I'll bite. Two guys.

I'd give anything to have John Patatucci's technique, he just doesn't move me -- emotionally or physically. (Now see...I'll get 500 examples how how great he is and I ain't gonna argue every one of them).

Another is Myung from Dream Theater -- he can play a lot of notes real fast, but there's no interesting phrasing, no melodicism and no groove.
Sorry to all who are fans. It's all Tupacs fault.

Having said that, I agree that the "no chops' argument is often made by those who don't have them and try to justify it.

Oops, I somehow missed this post. Since Myung was covered I'll find you a Patitucci one.


I think you may have got me here haha.

[tal213]

i always thought that being able to groove, was having chops.

[Rev J]

What I've noticed is phrases like "I'm a Groove Guy, not a Chops Guy" followed by criticisms of guys with great chops from bassists is kind of like the guy who plays guitar with almost no control that if they talked like they played there would be weird pauses, yelling at odd times, putting emphasis on strange words and then says "I'm sloppy but I play with alot of feel."

To me they are both cop outs for not learning to play and have the control to express what they want or need to express. That's all technique is. It's a means to an end.

I come from the perspective that "Chops" and "Groove" are not mutually exclusive concepts. Listen to Jamerson. He played alot of lines that take alot of technique to pull off but they also groove for days.

I'm one of these "Modern" guys with an active 6 string bass and effects. I also kind of learned to play backwards. I learned all of the "Solo Bass" techniques like tapping first then learned to play functional bass lines. Then I kind of had an epiphany. A solo technique is only a solo technique if you are using it to solo.

For example I could play a Stu Hamm tapping piece with a bunch of chords and contrary motion and all of that and it sounds pretty. Or I could take that same Stu Hamm tapping technique run it through an envelope filter and octave pedal andlock in with the drums and go into Bernie Worrell, Stevie Wonder, or Herbie Hancock territory in a way that is technically challenging but still fulfills my duty as a bassist to hold down the bottom and get a groove happening.

Technique is just a tool. Like a hammer or a saw. With those tools you can build an alter or a gallows and it's all the same to the tool.

C/S,
Rev J

[Rocker949]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Again, I do agree with you. Not learning as many skills as possible can be a cop out (especially if you are a pro). If you are a garage player, or in a hobby band (and there's nothing wrong with that either), then perhaps you can stick to thudding away on 1/8th notes. I once read an interview with Tom Hamilton (Aerosmith bassist). He said that he gets new instructional videos all the time. Even after all this time of playing around the world, he still loves to learn. And if it's going to be your profession, you should keep learning too. Like you I have also heard myths. My favorite is something like "If you learn all that stuff it will ruin your groove". I even had a guy tell me once (LOUDLY) that I would be stupid for learning guitar because it would ruin my bass playing.

Short version (I tend to be long winded) is do your own thing. If you want to learn a new skill, then by all means DO. But there's no harm in being a pocket groover either, especially if you are a weekend warrior or a hobbyist.

Great post.

[DJ Bebop]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Do you play out much? What's your experience with live bands? Honestly, I've lost count of the number of players I've encountered that take every opportunity they can find to noodle is places where it just doesn't fit. I've also met dozens of player that can play crazy riffs and solos, yet lack the skills to play a groove.

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I agree.

I come from the "wiggling you fingers" school of chops and grooves

[fdeck]

My electric bass playing has had its ups and downs, mainly because most of my work is on upright. Here's what I've noticed. I definitely gain or lose chops depending on how much I practice, as would be expected. Now here's the thing: For me, chops and groove are definitely coupled together. When my chops are in good shape, my groove is noticeably better. When I've neglected my practicing, my groove suffers.

Even when I'm playing relatively simple passages, chops (technique, including intonation on fretless bass) are what enable me to expend less of my attention on the physical aspects of playing, and more attention on the overall performance. Also, trusting my fingers to do the right things just makes it more enjoyable to play, and hopefully the audience senses that enjoyment.

[Klonk]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Well, this is going to seem cocky but here goes. I can do both.

I can tappity slap for days. I can play some Stu and Vic. I have even made up my own arrangements of songs that I play by myself tapping out melody and chords at the same time.

And I can groove. My favorite stuff to play is old soul music. And I don't mess around a bunch when I play that stuff. Just get into my warm cozy pocket and stay there.

But here's the point of the quotes in your first line. NONE of the fancy stuff EVER got me a gig. I used to lead with that stuff at auditions. I figured (like you) that if I can do the splappity tappity stuff and "blow them away" then I would be a shoe in. Nope. Every time I did that stuff, they kind of looked at me with a "whatever" and said "OK thanks for that. Now let's go down the set list and see how you play."

Here's another thing to think about. Audiences get BORED with bass wankery QUICKLY. I have been to Vic shows. Almost everyone there is a musician. And the ones who aren't came WITH a musician. But the average listener doesn't know and doesn't CARE if you can slappity tap. You can get away with it for a few seconds, but after that you better give them something to dance to. Even Vic is a prime example of that. He plays IN A BAND. And they do GOOD MUSIC. He doesn't slapptiy tap all night. They rock out and funk out all night with the occasional bass wankery for good measure. He brings a hot band and hot singers with him. I once saw Stu at a G3 show. He went into his usual bass solo thing for a few minutes. About a minute in, he had to yell at the crowd for not cheering him on. Even at a guitar wankery show, nobody cared that he can do the Charlie Brown theme on bass. (I can too, and trust me, nobody cares.)

If you think I'm closed minded and full of crap, please try it sometime. I have. I played a full bass arrangement of "Yesterday" once. I thought it was beautiful. The audience went to the bathroom and the bar. I have also done other (more "fun" kinds of songs). I have even done ones where I sang along with my slappity tap. And afterwards, the other musicians in the crowd would come up and tell me how impressed they were. But nobody else cared. So, go ahead. Spend hours and hours perfecting your own slappity tap. See how far it gets you.

These days, most of the musicians I know aren't even aware that I can do the slappity tap stuff. And you know what? They wouldn't care if they did know. It's just not that entertaining unless you make a show of it (like a Vic or Stu).

Want to make a living playing bass in a town like New York or Nashville? Don't show up with a 17 string Roscoe and slappity taps "chops". Show up with a P bass and some groove and a professional attitude. You don't have to take my word for it (and probably won't). Just ask the young guys working downtown Nashville. They can ALL get off on a bass like nobody's business. They have "chops" for days. But they show up with a P bass, good gear, a good ear, songs learned, the ability to read charts, and no slappity tappity.

If everybody liked to hear that stuff, there would be 400 Victors touring the country right now.

This may have come across as a rant. It's not. I actually agree with you about learning as many kinds of techniques as possible on your instrument. Just don;t expect to take the world by storm with your new found "chops". They don't care as long as you can hold a groove.

Great post!

I like Stevie Wonder's "Sir Duke":
But just because a record has a groove
Don't make it in the groove
But you can tell right away at letter A
When the people start to move

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tupac

Awesome post. Sounds like you've been around the block quite a ways. But do you see what I mean about those Nashville bassists? They do their job so well because, perhaps like you it seems, they were driven to get those chops, and in the end, it made them versatile bassists. They didn't come out of the gate thinking, "If I'm going to go pro, I better start learning how to plug root notes at 90 BPM!" You're probably right, you never will use those skills, but there's no harm in overachieving.

Chops doesn't making you versatile IMO IME. Listening does.

And being able to play slow tempos is highly underrated. I've seen lots of long term musicians struggle with it, like they can't wait to play the next note. It's almost funny how antsy they get. Guess they never heard the story of the two bulls.


My favorite gigs have always been those where everyone has what's referred to as "big ears", you can tell they've spent a ton of time listening and on that particular gig, they're listening to the other musicians. They can cue off the most seemingly insignificant thing that one of the other musicians does and you have what appears to be an arrangement which is merely something that just spontaneously happened. It's funny when you talk to someone on a break and they ask "How long have you guys been together?" and you tell them you just met that night. The look of disbelief is priceless.


Think about that. How often do musicians go off in their own little world and how well is that usually received? The chops musicians I know are like people who've acquired a strong vocabulary and practically NEVER SHUT UP. When they do, you can tell they're simply waiting for a chance to talk again... it makes absolutely no difference what's been said to them in the meantime. It's showtime!... show 'em everything you got.


Chops can give you the ability to play whatever's needed, the trick is knowing when to shut up.

[dmusic148]

Well, there's chops, and then there's CHOPS.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by Tupac

Awesome post. Sounds like you've been around the block quite a ways. But do you see what I mean about those Nashville bassists? They do their job so well because, perhaps like you it seems, they were driven to get those chops, and in the end, it made them versatile bassists. They didn't come out of the gate thinking, "If I'm going to go pro, I better start learning how to plug root notes at 90 BPM!" You're probably right, you never will use those skills, but there's no harm in overachieving.

Putting time into one's instrument is, I think, always commendable - but practising playing really fast (what some people associate with developing "chops") probably won't be nearly as helpful as learning to play a variety of styles (or even just listening to a variety of styles of music). I'm often amazed talking to other musicians how many of them really don't listen to a lot of music - let alone different kinds of music. I'm also amazed when people think that "all styles" basically means American pop, country, blues, R&B and jazz - with maybe some "Latin" (whatever that means) and reggae thrown in. Anyway, the players I enjoy playing with the most are not the ones who have the most "amazing" chops in the commonly-thought-of sense, but those to whom I can say, "Hey let's try playing that with a compa feel" or "Keep Nile Rodgers in mind during that section" without getting a blank stare.

[Kmonk]

Originally Posted by tal213

i always thought that being able to groove, was having chops.

Exactly what I was thinking. To me, having good chops is simply having the ability to play what is right for the song.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Chops doesn't making you versatile IMO IME. Listening does.

And being able to play slow tempos is highly underrated. I've seen lots of long term musicians struggle with it, like they can't wait to play the next note. It's almost funny how ansty they get. Guess they never heard the story of the two bulls.


My favorite gigs have always been those where everyone has what's referred to as "big ears", you can tell they've spent a ton of time listening and on that particular gig, they're listening to the other musicians. They can cue off the most seemingly insignificant thing that one of the other musicians does and you have what appears to be an arrangement which is merely something that just spontaneously happened. It's funny when you talk to someone on a break and they ask "How long have you guys been together?" and you tell them you just met that night. The look of disbelief is priceless.


Think about that. How often do musicians go off in their own little world and how well is that usually received? The chops musicians I know are like people who've acquired a strong vocabulary and practically NEVER SHUT UP. When they do, you can tell they're simply waiting for a chance to talk again... it makes absolutely no difference what's been said to them in the meantime. It's showtime!... show 'em everything you got.


Chops can give you the ability to play whatever's needed, the trick is knowing when to shut up.

That pretty much nails it.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Tupac

What is it that makes "groove" and chops exclusive?

They're not. I don't know anyone who thinks that they are. Apparently except for you...

Originally Posted by Tupac

All "groove" to me seems like is an excuse to not put the time and effort into gaining skills.

Believe me, groove is far more than that. Much, much more than that. If you really don't understand what it is - and what it is not - chances are that you can't recognize it, even when it's right under your nose. And if you can't recognize it, you won't be able to do it.

Originally Posted by Tupac

If you play enough, chops WILL come to you, as your body naturally weans into the path of least resistance, the most efficient technique. And even if you don't like that music, the worst thing that can happen is that you develop a more economic technique, and learn to play slower better.

While it is true that players who play frequently and/or regularly tend to develop their skills on the instrument (i.e. "chops"), it is not necessarily true AT ALL that one's technique will somehow automatically evolve in the most "efficient" or most "economic" way. Good technique is developed, first by conscious, deliberate application of best principles; and secondly, by careful, frequent repetition of those principles (i.e. personal practice). Applying the second portion of that formula doesn't result in good technique, unless one applies the first portion of that formula as well. Simply repeating a clumsy, awkward, painful and/or inconvenient approach to playing the instrument, in and of itself, merely reinforces and solidifies that clumsy, awkward, painful and/or inconvenient technique. It doesn't necessarily make it any better.

You have some pretty strange ideas about music, my friend...

MM

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

The chops musicians I know are like people who've acquired a strong vocabulary and practically NEVER SHUT UP. When they do, you can tell they're simply waiting for a chance to talk again... it makes absolutely no difference what's been said to them in the meantime. It's showtime!... show 'em everything you got.


Chops can give you the ability to play whatever's needed, the trick is knowing when to shut up.

This is a truly brilliant analogy about the role of chops in music. To take the analogy just a baby step further, one could make the case that the truly mature "chops" player is so self-secure that he no longer feels the need to show off his extensive vocabulary: He speaks when he has something to say...and only then does he put his vocabulary to work - and only to the extent necessary to best get across the message: A brief and simple message? A brief and simple phrase. A profound, complex and/or highly sophisticated message? A profound, complex and/or highly sophisticated application of his vocabulary.

The difference between a technician and an artist is that the technician knows all the tricks & techniques for conveying the message: He just doesn't have anything that interesting or compelling to say. The artist doesn't necessarily have the same technical command as the technician...but he/she has a vision, a point of view...and definitely has something interesting or compelling to say.

MM