Cliff Burton?

[SenorQueso]

I've always wanted too know this. Why the hell do people worship Cliff Burton? I've gotten answers such as "He was a great Bassist", "He made Metallica who they where", or "An absolutely amazing bass player". Seriously, what's the deal with him? When I listen too Metallica I hear nothing amazing done on the bass. Pulling teeth was nothing too roar about. I believe it's the same reason why people think Kurt Cobain was a genius songwriter. Somebody please give me a good answer too why he is worshiped.

[Petary791]

1. He studied Bach-- that's pretty impressive for a metal bassist.
2. He taught Kirk Hammet how to play quite a bit of stuff.
3. Orion
4. Damage Inc.

[jsbass]

It's mainly the people that are into the hair or the glam or how he looks that rave about him, and because he would do those flashy solos at concerts etc that got him so popular, but really, I wouldn't call him a great bassist either. In my opinion, Jason Newsted really hit the spot a lot better than Cliff ever did. Metallica even said, they hired Cliff because of what they saw him do that one night when he was playing for Trauma, not off of his skill. Jason they hired off of skill and were impressed he knew all the Metallica material and even showed them some of his own ideas and ways of how to play. Everyone here would know I worship Newsted.

[Petary791]

I really don't see the whole fascination with Newsted. I don't think he's much of a player. He never really wow'd me. I'd take Rob over him any day. Especially after hearing just the bass track of "Call of Ktulu" S&M version... he's just bad. There's absolutely NO FEEL when he plays.

http://media.putfile.com/Jason-Bass-Ktulu

[jsbass]

Uh oh, I don't like where this is going. And usually it results in the person saying "Well, Newsted has no feel when he plays cause he USES A PICK!" But, I won't get into it and I respect peoples opinions.

EDIT: Also, Metallica wouldn't have picked Newsted if they thought he 'sucked'.

[Rimshot]

Thats funny...Metallica and Glam together in one train of thought!

Cliff Burton is, on the whole, an underrated bassist. While the milieu in which he received his notoriety is not for everyone, that is merely a matter of personal taste.

Also, many fail to put him in the right chronological context. I doubt Babe Ruth would have very good stats against today's pitchers. (I can back that statement up, but lets just accept it for the sake of not hijacking the thread).

[Jumbotron]

Originally Posted by Rimshot

I doubt Babe Ruth would have very good stats against today's pitchers. (I can back that statement up, but lets just accept it for the sake of not hijacking the thread).

Must...resist...reply

[jsbass]

Originally Posted by Rimshot

Thats funny...Metallica and Glam together in one train of thought!

Ok, wrong word there. Image is what I should have said.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by SenorQueso

When I listen too Metallica I hear nothing amazing done on the bass.

What do you expect to hear? I grew up listening to Metallica and I like Cliff, but I don't understand your confusion. What could he have done in a band context that would have impressed you? IMO, he played very well.

Joe

[scottyd]

Because he died way too young. Same goes for Kurt, Jimi, VanZant, the list is endless. For the most part I think alot of it has to do with memorial.

[GhostLobby]

I don't know, it's so thoroughly subjective that there is probably not going to be satisfactory answer to your question. I think he was the best bassist for Metallica while he was still alive. Newstead is also a great bassist, but I think he suffers in comparison because, again, speaking subjectively, many people think Metallica's sound changed for the worse once he came into the picture. What would Cliff be doing now? How would Metallica's sound have changed were he still alive?

I don't think studying Bach makes him any better than anyone else, but my criteria for what makes a great musician is based more on how they fit within the context of a band or their musicality as opposed to how many crazy licks they can play or how out of the world their chops are. I think Ringo was an amazing, amazing drummer when he was in the Beatles. Same with Charlie Watts in the Stones. They played exactly what needed to be played. I think Cliff played exactly what was supposed to be played during his days in Metallica and he contributed greatly to their sound. Should Cliff be considered in the same league as Jaco? Probably not, Jaco changed the possibilities of bass playing for everyone while Cliff maybe expanded the possibilities for bass players in metal.

[Rimshot]

Originally Posted by GhostLobby

I don't know, it's so thoroughly subjective that there is probably not going to be satisfactory answer to your question. I think he was the best bassist for Metallica while he was still alive. Newstead is also a great bassist, but I think he suffers in comparison because, again, speaking subjectively, many people think Metallica's sound changed for the worse once he came into the picture. What would Cliff be doing now? How would Metallica's sound have changed were he still alive?

I don't think studying Bach makes him any better than anyone else, but my criteria for what makes a great musician is based more on how they fit within the context of a band or their musicality as opposed to how many crazy licks they can play or how out of the world their chops are. I think Ringo was an amazing, amazing drummer when he was in the Beatles. Same with Charlie Watts in the Stones. They played exactly what needed to be played. I think Cliff played exactly what was supposed to be played during his days in Metallica and he contributed greatly to their sound. Should Cliff be considered in the same league as Jaco? Probably not, Jaco changed the possibilities of bass playing for everyone while Cliff maybe expanded the possibilities for bass players in metal.

ClapClapClapClap!

[LifeIsBass]

Originally Posted by Petary791

I really don't see the whole fascination with Newsted. I don't think he's much of a player. He never really wow'd me. I'd take Rob over him any day. Especially after hearing just the bass track of "Call of Ktulu" S&M version... he's just bad. There's absolutely NO FEEL when he plays.

http://media.putfile.com/Jason-Bass-Ktulu

+1. Just listened to that file. That was bad! Maybe it's just that I can't usually stand the sound of pick playing (no offense to pick players, suit yourself, it's just not my cup 'o tea).

I respect Cliff in the sense that in the world of metal he's a legend, an originator, and an influence to countless metal bass players that followed. He was also quite a showman. In the grand scheme of things, though, I'm not really awestruck by his musicianship and feel he's a bit overrated.

[SenorQueso]

Originally Posted by GhostLobby

I don't know, it's so thoroughly subjective that there is probably not going to be satisfactory answer to your question. I think he was the best bassist for Metallica while he was still alive. Newstead is also a great bassist, but I think he suffers in comparison because, again, speaking subjectively, many people think Metallica's sound changed for the worse once he came into the picture. What would Cliff be doing now? How would Metallica's sound have changed were he still alive?

I don't think studying Bach makes him any better than anyone else, but my criteria for what makes a great musician is based more on how they fit within the context of a band or their musicality as opposed to how many crazy licks they can play or how out of the world their chops are. I think Ringo was an amazing, amazing drummer when he was in the Beatles. Same with Charlie Watts in the Stones. They played exactly what needed to be played. I think Cliff played exactly what was supposed to be played during his days in Metallica and he contributed greatly to their sound. Should Cliff be considered in the same league as Jaco? Probably not, Jaco changed the possibilities of bass playing for everyone while Cliff maybe expanded the possibilities for bass players in metal.

That's basically what I was looking for. Thanks man you made it clear for me..

[vashts80]

Originally Posted by GhostLobby

I don't know, it's so thoroughly subjective that there is probably not going to be satisfactory answer to your question. I think he was the best bassist for Metallica while he was still alive. Newstead is also a great bassist, but I think he suffers in comparison because, again, speaking subjectively, many people think Metallica's sound changed for the worse once he came into the picture. What would Cliff be doing now? How would Metallica's sound have changed were he still alive?

The problem with this is that ultimately, Metallica's sound probably would have changed even more than it did after Cliff died. Cliff wasn't just boxed into metal - he listened to and studied classical music (obvious by his influence on MoP with some of the arrangements) as well as being big into the punk scene (Misfits shirt, Misfits tattoo, etc etc)

Hence why the arguement that they would have stayed "metal" had he not died, is completely false imo. They probably would have done material like their self-titled in place of the AJFA material had he not died.


As far as Cliff's skills as a bass player: Honestly, I don't think he was that skilled as a bass player - I think his skill lied more in knowing how to compose and arrange things. As far as I know, he was teaching James some theory throughout the RtL/MoP writing/recording sessions.

For his influence, I think a lot of people can't see passed his used of distortion and wah. Yes, he was flashy with that, but he did was a metal bass player should do in terms of actual playing: hold down the low end. A lot of bass players, especially in metal, I'm sure started playing BECAUSE of Burton's flashyness. I have no problem with flashyness (my favorite metal bass player is Steve DiGiorgio), but I don't think a lot of people really looked passed that.

In the metal scene, I don't think Cliff was THAT influential for metal bass players who get out of playing local bars. Guys like DiGiorgio, Myung, Sheehan, Malone, Patterson, Choy etc were probably well on their way at the time that Kill 'Em All came out. Even with the sub-par mixing,

I don't think Burton had more than maybe a mediocre influence on these guys at best. Hell, Malone was just an aspiring jazz bassist when he got called up to play on Cynic's debut "Focus."

Hence why I think Burton was overrated. Would I rather have seen guys like DiGiorgio or Choy actually play on the material that Burton played on? Not at all - I think they'd take away from it. However, I don't think Cliff was as "God-like" as a lot of (misinformed and potentially ignorant) metal bass fans think.

[hungrych]

I'm gonna have to say that it was because he was a great Bassist, and he made Metallica who they were.

His lines just fit so perfectly (For Whom The Bell Tolls), and Orion is just amazing. What more do you want?

[GhostLobby]

Originally Posted by vashts80

The problem with this is that ultimately, Metallica's sound probably would have changed even more than it did after Cliff died. Cliff wasn't just boxed into metal - he listened to and studied classical music (obvious by his influence on MoP with some of the arrangements) as well as being big into the punk scene (Misfits shirt, Misfits tattoo, etc etc)

Hence why the arguement that they would have stayed "metal" had he not died, is completely false imo. They probably would have done material like their self-titled in place of the AJFA material had he not died.

I never argued that Metallica would have stayed 'metal' had he lived, though you're absolutely right that many make that obviously flawed argument. If anything, I think their music would have gotten a lot more interesting and ambitious with respect to what it actually became (see Load, a more aptly titled album I've not yet heard of). I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the 'black' album is the direction they would have gone though. It's all useless speculation at this point, but it's fun.

[ALiP BoB]

You miss em more when they're dead.

[Poop-Loops]

The songs he wrote were pretty cool. Although I prefer Dave Eiflashehsaioe from Megadeth's basslines more, since you can actually discern them from the guitars.

[barkatozz]

Cliff also had a speedy picking hand as well.....much like Trujillo does. He really added some great stuff live as well......get a hold of some of the board tapes floating around from '84 & '85....he really shines.