Craig Gruber (Elf, Rainbow, a bit of Sabbath)

[bongomania]

I had never heard of Gruber until I saw his recent advertisements for "Infinite Metal Werkz" basses. In his ads he proclaims that he has performed with practically every major early metal band, and he also claims to have written and recorded most of Sabbath's "Heaven and Hell". A Google search says maybe that's not true, but it's not definitive either. Wikipedia paints him as a sideman who got fired from Rainbow for not being a good enough bassist, and downplays his involvement in later albums by other bands.

So does anyone here have the real lowdown? Any friends of Craig, or people that know his career details "for a fact"? Anyone here ever worked with him? Any dirt or praises? I'm curious either way.

[Geddyfleaharris]

Originally Posted by bongomania

and he also claims to have written and recorded most of Sabbath's "Heaven and Hell".

I would like to see what Dio/Iommi have to say about that.

I was a pretty big fan of Rainbow/Sabbath/Heaven and Hell era stuff and I cannot say that I even recognize this guy's name.

[Bassgrinder77]

Heaven and Hell is a major Geezer Butler album.

Originally Posted by bongomania

I had never heard of Gruber until I saw his recent advertisements for "Infinite Metal Werkz" basses. In his ads he proclaims that he has performed with practically every major early metal band, and he also claims to have written and recorded most of Sabbath's "Heaven and Hell". A Google search says maybe that's not true, but it's not definitive either. Wikipedia paints him as a sideman who got fired from Rainbow for not being a good enough bassist, and downplays his involvement in later albums by other bands.

So does anyone here have the real lowdown? Any friends of Craig, or people that know his career details "for a fact"? Anyone here ever worked with him? Any dirt or praises? I'm curious either way.

[Hamerguy]

When I listened to Rainbow's first album, I'd say the bass work is nice on the songs, similar in style to what Glenn Hughes played at that time. I think he never played any shows with Rainbow, as the first gig (in November 1975) already had the classic "Rising" line up (with also some songs of that album already performed). I also listened to the ELF albums, the overall song writing and the bass playing wasn't really special compared to the first Rainbow album. The story about Sab's "Heaven and Hell" has neither been confirmed nor denied, maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. He later resurfaced in Gary Moore's band and I think he was in "the Rods" too (in which former ELF guitarist David Feinstein played). There is a bootleg of a live concert of ELF on the net "Live in Cortland 1972", they even cover Sab's "War Pigs" I have it somewhere but don't remember the bass playing on that.

[Lesfunk]

I heard that Gruber recorded most if not all of the Heaven and Hell album because Geezer had quit the band. When Geezer heard the new songs he wanted back in so Gruber was canned and Butler rerecorded the bass parts.
That story makes sense to me because the bass lines on Heaven and Hell are so different than every other Sabbath album Geezer was on.
Songs like "Die Young" and "Wishing well" have much more melodic bass lines than Geezer is known for.

[bongomania]

See that's just the thing--no disrespect to Geezer, I'm a big fan, but the basslines are definitely different on H&H, and I love them! It's always been the first album I pointed people to when I want them to hear the awesomeness of Geezer... So when I read the claim that it wasn't written by Geezer, and maybe not even recorded by him, my eyes popped out. But as noted above, I don't think anyone has made a definitive case about it yet. Saying "H&H is a major Geezer album" doesn't mean anything. Just because it's got massively great bass lines and playing on it, and his name is in the credits, doesn't mean it's all his work.

Anyway I'm still interested to find out more from any side of the picture. The story Lesfunk tells sounds pretty plausible to me... any other views?

[Hamrhed]

Geezer has said that he liked what Craig had done- but make no mistake: Geezer wrote the bulk of what you hear on Heaven and hell...

That period was a major transition for what was left of Sabbath- both personally and professionally. The same accusation made of Butler (that he was playing what seems to be differently than before) could also easily have been made of Iommi and Ward as well. If you listen to Technical Ecstacy and Never say die, the progression to H&H seems a bit more understandable, especially considering that the entire band was evolving not only as mature road-tested veterans, but also as a group reinvigorated by their involvement w/ Dio. And dont think that playing on the road w/ upstarts like a young and hungry Van Halen didnt have any effect on them... it did and that also shows up on H&H, imho...

Graig is a gifted musician, but Butler wrote the book on the hard rock genre- so he didnt need to ape Craig's stuff anyway. Any album after H&H that he recorded ( from Mob Rules and Born again thru Dehumanizer and Ozzy's Ozmosis to his solo stuff...)- it all stands on its own as what we expect from Geezer: great melodic hard rock bass guitar that is second to none!

[Bassgrinder77]

Sure it does. What's the alternative? Thinking some guy who isn't on the album is? Why think that? Are you a conspiracy theorist? All we can know is what they tell us. We weren't there and that's true for any album. For years the word has been that freed from having to write lyrics (which he did for Ozzy), Geezer renewed his focus on bass and writing songs. That's what they said. If the other guy played on the tracks and didn't get credit and royalties, he would have rightfully sued and we'd know about it. When Geezer complimented the guy he was probably being kind and generous ('atta boy, good effort, run along now!). But now the conspiracy hallucinators see hidden clues and meaning in it.
Plus, when did that other guy ever play massively great bass lines? He didn't do diddly squat in Rainbow and got rightfully sacked by Blackmore. As for Elf, Dio kicked his butt on bass. So now we're supposed to believe the great bass on on Heaven and Hell is this bland, nondescript guy and not the bassist of War Pigs, NIB, Wicked World, Tomorrows Dream, Sweet Leaf, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, etc ... why believe that?

Originally Posted by bongomania

Saying "H&H is a major Geezer album" doesn't mean anything. Just because it's got massively great bass lines and playing on it, and his name is in the credits, doesn't mean it's all his work.

[vstringbassist]

I spoke with Craig on the phone for about a half hour. It was very interesting and he seems pretty cool. I had called him about his new bassline.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

Sure it does. What's the alternative? Thinking some guy who isn't on the album is? Why think that? Are you a conspiracy theorist? All we can know is what they tell us.

Sorry, no. Check out the hundreds of threads about Motown tunes where Carol Kaye, Bob Babbitt, and the Jamerson estate have been battling for years over who should rightfully get credit for which tunes. The name printed on the album credits very often has diddly-squat to do with who wrote the lines, who sat in as a session performer, and whose actual work ended up in the final cut. Babbitt wrote a good short essay on this subject, giving as an example on the first Talking Heads album, where after the band recorded the album, the label called in Babbitt to re-do the bass lines for the actual release. They never told the band that this had occurred, and Tina Weymouth is credited on the album as the bassist.

You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist if you know how major-label studio business actually works behind the scenes. Happens all the time.

Saying Gruber "did diddly squat" and "was rightfully sacked" just doesn't carry any legitimacy whatsoever except as your own opinion, that you're entitled to, based on what you choose to believe.

Note that I don't have any axe to grind here except for getting at the true story from a reliable source. Hamrhed makes a pretty good case for why he believes what he does.

[Bassgrinder77]

Believe what you want.
But Motown is a diddly squat example since all the musicians were session players and it was 100% Barry Gordie's show, marketing various singers.
That might be true re the first Talking Heads album and Tina Weymouth. If it is, the session player was paid per an up front agreement. Labels have occasionally done that kind of thing with new bands that have no clout (like the Beatles very first session), but by the 80's, Black Sabbath was absolutely calling their own shots.
Name one notable Craig Gruber bass line ... <crickets> ...
I can name lots of notable Geezer Butler bass lines.
The burden of proof is on you.
You're saying Iommi, Butler, Dio and Ward lied on the album and screwed this guy - so prove it. I don't believe accusations that defame people unless there's solid evidence.

Originally Posted by bongomania

Sorry, no. Check out the hundreds of threads about Motown tunes where Carol Kaye, Bob Babbitt, and the Jamerson estate have been battling for years over who should rightfully get credit for which tunes. The name printed on the album credits very often has diddly-squat to do with who wrote the lines, who sat in as a session performer, and whose actual work ended up in the final cut. Babbitt wrote a good short essay on this subject, giving as an example on the first Talking Heads album, where after the band recorded the album, the label called in Babbitt to re-do the bass lines for the actual release. They never told the band that this had occurred, and Tina Weymouth is credited on the album as the bassist.

You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist if you know how major-label studio business actually works behind the scenes. Happens all the time.

Saying Gruber "did diddly squat" and "was rightfully sacked" just doesn't carry any legitimacy whatsoever except as your own opinion, that you're entitled to, based on what you choose to believe.

Note that I don't have any axe to grind here except for getting at the true story from a reliable source. Hamrhed makes a pretty good case for why he believes what he does.

[Hamerguy]

Asking for proof here is a bit silly, don't you think? Nobody said that Geezer Butler is bad, who is obviously your hero. Talking about credits, that is nonsense... you BS fans remember the story about the credits on Ozzy's "Diary of a madman". But it took a while until it became public that Daisley and Kerslake recorded the album. I guess you guys believed all through the nineties that Aldridge and Sarzo played on the album. Or if you look at the credits of Jeff Beck "Rough and Ready" album, Beck didn't write any of it, yet the credits still show his name.
Before there were rumors of Gruber playing on H&H I didn't know that he was a replacement for Butler at all. Yet there seems to have been admitted that he was involved in that album.
If you think Butler played the album, fine. If others think that Gruber played the album, also fine, don't you think? As it really doesn't matter much, the album is great. And if the truth would be that Gruber recorded it then Butler still is a mighty fine bass player who doesn't need prove his skills.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

The burden of proof is on you.
You're saying Iommi, Butler, Dio and Ward lied on the album and screwed this guy - so prove it. I don't believe accusations that defame people unless there's solid evidence.

Hey, I get it that you're a diehard Geezer fan. If you would take of the fanboy sunglasses for a minute you'd see that I haven't accused anybody of anything, Craig Gruber has made some claims and I'm asking people for some kind of objective agreement or disagreement with those claims that Craig Gruber made. So far you haven't shown any objectivity at all, so I'm going to ask you to step out of the thread and let the people who might have some objective up-close info contribute.

[Lesfunk]

I know that two bassist were used in pre production of the Heaven and Hell album. Geezer had simply quit the band when Ozzy was fired. Iommi talked him into coming back once he heard the rough demos.

I researched the the subject and it was Geoff Nicholls , As well as Gruber who was involved with the process early on in the Heaven and Hell sessions. Nicholls came up with the bassline to the song Heaven and Hell. Geezer butler himself admitted that he "...Never would have played that part. It was too simple."

Iommi was never really impressed by Gruber who was fired during pre production. To Quote Iommi, "Craigs playing was good but not exactly amazing. I guess he would have been good enough but there was a feeling that he wouldn't be able to fit into the unit."
Dio says he was fired for being "Too American".


It's important to note that there is no concrete evidence that any of Gruber's bass work found it's way to the final "Heaven and Hell" Product .
Geoff Nicholls says "Absolutely not".
For those who are unfamiliar with Nicholls, he was Sabbaths keyboard / Utility player from 79 until the Ozzy reunion of the late 90's.

My source for this info is the book "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath- the battle for black sabbath" by Gary Sharpe Young. This book is the most comprehensive historical document on Black Sabbath and Ozzy from 1978 to present.

[Bassgrinder77]

No, I don't think it's silly. It's up to the person making or repeating the accusation to prove it. I'm tired of people spreading stupid rumors for which there is no evidence. I think Geezer's cool and I tip my hat to Sabbath for sure but they're not really the point.
Too many want to believe the paranoid worst. Too many clowns want some secret inside knowlege - even if it's BS. I just think it's pathetic.
It's also stupid to try to frame this whole thing as a matter of opinion. Who played on the album is not a subjective matter. Who played on the album is WHO PLAYED ON THE ALBUM and a historical fact. Although none of us were there, it's stupid to assume anything other than what the only real authority on the matter (the album and the band) says - especially in the absence of anything else that's credible.
And FYI it looks like the previous post from LesFunk lays it to rest, which doesn't surprise me. I'm no Sabbath expert but the stupid rumor obviously didn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Hamerguy

Asking for proof here is a bit silly, don't you think? Nobody said that Geezer Butler is bad, who is obviously your hero. Talking about credits, that is nonsense... you BS fans remember the story about the credits on Ozzy's "Diary of a madman". But it took a while until it became public that Daisley and Kerslake recorded the album. I guess you guys believed all through the nineties that Aldridge and Sarzo played on the album. Or if you look at the credits of Jeff Beck "Rough and Ready" album, Beck didn't write any of it, yet the credits still show his name.
Before there were rumors of Gruber playing on H&H I didn't know that he was a replacement for Butler at all. Yet there seems to have been admitted that he was involved in that album.
If you think Butler played the album, fine. If others think that Gruber played the album, also fine, don't you think? As it really doesn't matter much, the album is great. And if the truth would be that Gruber recorded it then Butler still is a mighty fine bass player who doesn't need prove his skills.

[pe_35]

is smebody tried to figure it out about not the bass playing but the sound , is the bass sound can be similar to Gruber (the 1st Rainbow album) or Butler (maybe the technical ecstasy or never say die album) ?

i'm not a bass player, i'm a drummer for 35 years but i dig the bass you know.

maybe some experienced bass players have to analyse that attentively to maybe have the answer about WHO really played on the heaven and hell album or maybe it's half n' half (Gruber and Butler) like somebody already told me about that famous story.

about the fact that Daisley and Kerslake played on Diary of a madman (Ozzy Osbourne) , i don't know about Daisley but for sure, my drummer's experience tells me that it's impossible that Kerslake played on that because he plays one bass drum and Aldridge plays 2 bass-drums.

you have to listen to the beginning of little dolls, the combinaison of snare/floor tom/bass-drums is evident, also the end of flyin' high again, also if you listen to the speak of the devil dvd, the beginning of over the mountain is the same when it's played by Aldridge, if you listen to the living loud dvd (Morse/Daisley/Kerslake/barnes), the beginning of over the mountain is not exactly the same, Kerslake make at the end of the fill a double flame...no no no it's a combinaison of a snare/tom/bass-drum and after one flame (hope that somebody can understand what i try to explain).

last thing, the drum sound on diary of the madman is really the Aldridge sound (Sonor drums with evans drum heads (oil heads), he had this sound with Black oak arkansas and also Pat Travers live .

i tried to ask the question to Aldridge himself but of course, he don't have the right to admit the truth.

[tribus]

I think gruber recorded the heaven part of the album and geezer recorded the hell part of the album.

[NOLA Bass]

Originally Posted by Lesfunk

I know that two bassist were used in pre production of the Heaven and Hell album. Geezer had simply quit the band when Ozzy was fired. Iommi talked him into coming back once he heard the rough demos.

I researched the the subject and it was Geoff Nicholls , As well as Gruber who was involved with the process early on in the Heaven and Hell sessions. Nicholls came up with the bassline to the song Heaven and Hell. Geezer butler himself admitted that he "...Never would have played that part. It was too simple."

Iommi was never really impressed by Gruber who was fired during pre production. To Quote Iommi, "Craigs playing was good but not exactly amazing. I guess he would have been good enough but there was a feeling that he wouldn't be able to fit into the unit."
Dio says he was fired for being "Too American".


It's important to note that there is no concrete evidence that any of Gruber's bass work found it's way to the final "Heaven and Hell" Product .
Geoff Nicholls says "Absolutely not".
For those who are unfamiliar with Nicholls, he was Sabbaths keyboard / Utility player from 79 until the Ozzy reunion of the late 90's.

My source for this info is the book "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath- the battle for black sabbath" by Gary Sharpe Young. This book is the most comprehensive historical document on Black Sabbath and Ozzy from 1978 to present.

+1, I read the same book. Geezer played on the album but even admitted to gleaning some ideas from the early recorded demo tapes. It would be impossible to come in at that stage and not at least be "influenced" by what had been done to that point. Not a knock on Geezer, who I love, just the plain facts. I think Geezer also mentioned that aspect of the song "Heaven and Hell" in Bass Player a while back.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

Heaven and Hell is a major Geezer Butler album.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

Are you a conspiracy theorist?

One can ask you the same thing.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

All we can know is what they tell us. We weren't there and that's true for any album.

No we weren't but you insist that it couldn't have been Craig Gruber playing bass.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

If the other guy played on the tracks and didn't get credit and royalties, he would have rightfully sued

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

and we'd know about it.

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

Believe what you want.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

But Motown is a diddly squat example since all the musicians were session players and it was 100% Barry Gordie's show

It's really no different. Ghost musicians are a big part of the industry. Always have been,always will be and the practice applies to all musical genre's. Especially when certain artists/band images and legacies are to be protected. And Smokey Robinson had equally if not more say so within the walls of Motown as Barry Gordy.

It really shouldn't surprise any one,when a musician isn't credited for playing on a track(when in fact they may have) or given writing/co-writing credit.


Record Labels have a way of controlling things. It's not about the band but what is perceived as the band.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

The burden of proof is on you.

I think it's on you.

Originally Posted by Bassgrinder77

Who played on the album is WHO PLAYED ON THE ALBUM and a historical fact.

It has been proven many time over and over that that is not always true.

[mf1941]

I totally agree with the last post.

Recording time is expensive & studio players have always been used to record parts quickly & accurately.

Having a certain look or catchy riff is great however it won't help if it can't be performed correctly.

It's amazing to see the body of work someone such as Carol Kaye has amassed & it's worth investigating.

It can only make one a better player regardless of musical style.