Does anyone know what virtuoso means?

[superbassman2000]

Being on talkbass for almost 10 years, I notice a recurring theme among the ranks--people seem to attribute virtuosity to fast playing, and commonly playing too much. Mostly when I see people make the polls regarding playing like a virtuoso vs. playing simple lines, or even worse, "playing what the song calls for".

If anyone reads the definition of virtuoso, it makes no reference to speed, just basically someone who excels at their instrument (in a musical context). That doesn't mean 64th notes at 300 BPM. It really only means they are capable of pulling it off. A virtuoso has the musical ability to know when to play the whole notes (or not even play at all) and when it's time to turn up the heat.

Or am I just trolling?

[Tituscrow]

I suspect your initial proclamation of your longevity as a TB'er is intended to ward off any hate in the first instance. If Eric Albany posted this question, I would be guaranteed a few days of mild amusement....

Back on topic, I hear what you are saying, but generally we dont live our lives by dictionary definitions. Are you suggesting Cliff Williams, by definition, is a virtuoso?

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by Tituscrow

Back on topic, I hear what you are saying, but generally we dont live our lives by dictionary definitions. Are you suggesting Cliff Williams, by definition, is a virtuoso?

I am saying it's a possibility. I haven't heard him in a situation where he would play something other than AC/DC.

Look at Michael Manring for instance--he has chops for days, but at the same time, I have heard him as a sideman just sitting on whole notes on his fretless, and it sounds just as impressive to me. I think a true musical virtuoso has the ability to keep a musical piece cohesive (as an extension of the definition)

and yes, I know we don't really live by the dictionary, but I also think that the comparison of virtuoso vs. simple is incorrect.

[Buster Mudd]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

A virtuoso has the musical ability to know when to play the whole notes (or not even play at all)

+1
One of my favorite acknowledgments of this is in the liner notes to an old King Crimson album, for a tune where drummer Bill Bruford chose to not play anything at all...instead of "drums" Bill is credited with "admirable restraint"

[esa372]

It is from the Latin virtús, which means "excellence", "goodness", or "manliness".

Virtús, itself, is from the root vir, which means "man".



So there.

[koricancowboy]

A virtuoso is someone who is no longer encumbered by technique. He or she has so mastered their instrument that what comes out is an extension of that person. Rather than being a bassist the person is a singer through the instrument. Fast or slow, technical or not, the music being made by the person is not subject to the same blocks in technique that those who are not virtuosi have to deal with. Part of technique is speed but it does not stop there. Being able to do anything, ANYTHING, the music calls for, with excellence is virtuosity. If one has to think about it, chances are they are not there. Cliff Williams is not a virtuoso. Just a solid classic rock player in the band AC/DC. In short a virtuoso can slay their instrument and kiss it tenderly too. Just my 2¢.

[Winemule]

Originally Posted by koricancowboy

A virtuoso is someone who is no longer encumbered by technique. He or she has so mastered their instrument that what comes out is an extension of that person. Rather than being a bassist the person is a singer through the instrument. Fast or slow, technical or not, the music being made by the person is not subject to the same blocks in technique that those who are not virtuosi have to deal with. Part of technique is speed but it does not stop there. Being able to do anything, ANYTHING, the music calls for, with excellence is virtuosity. If one has to think about it, chances are they are not there. Cliff Williams is not a virtuoso. Just a solid classic rock player in the band AC/DC. In short a virtuoso can slay their instrument and kiss it tenderly too. Just my 2¢.

Well there you are. Next question?

[Tituscrow]

Agree. I dont think you could call Cliff Williams virtuoso by any definition. Was just asking the question based on the OP's apparent adherence to something so constraining as a 'definition'.

I'd class a virtuoso as someone so completely au fait with their instrument of choice, that the music they produce goes beyond any boundaries or barriers that one would normally encounter, and as such can transcend genres with ease.

In other words, a show off

[Nobody]

Many times people use a word for it's commonly accepted definition rather than it's actual definition. It seems that most people when they hear the word virtuoso they think of someone that is technically very good at what they do,so when someone thinks of a virtuoso bass player they think of Jaco, Wooten(sp), and people that play complicated, technically hard music really well. They don't think of people that "just play for the song". So someone may use the word "wrongly" knowing that people will understand what they are saying.

[JimmyM]

Cliff may not be a virtuoso, but I know a lot of virtuosos who can't play an AC/DC song worth a crap.

[sigmafloyd]

Originally Posted by koricancowboy

A virtuoso is someone who is no longer encumbered by technique. He or she has so mastered their instrument that what comes out is an extension of that person. Rather than being a bassist the person is a singer through the instrument. Fast or slow, technical or not, the music being made by the person is not subject to the same blocks in technique that those who are not virtuosi have to deal with. Part of technique is speed but it does not stop there. Being able to do anything, ANYTHING, the music calls for, with excellence is virtuosity. If one has to think about it, chances are they are not there. Cliff Williams is not a virtuoso. Just a solid classic rock player in the band AC/DC. In short a virtuoso can slay their instrument and kiss it tenderly too. Just my 2¢.

+1

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Cliff may not be a virtuoso, but I know a lot of virtuosos who can't play an AC/DC song worth a crap.

see, this is what I am saying--if a bassist can't play an AC/DC song with the right feel/restraint, then I would go so far to say that the bassist is not a virtuoso. A virtuoso excels in all aspects of the instrument, and if they can only play fast, and have difficulty playing slow, then I would argue that they don't have the instrument mastered.

[bottomzone]

Here are some examples:

YouTube - ‪Reggie Young on Bass Playing "Giant Steps" Amazing Bass Player‬‏

YouTube - ‪Bill Dickens‬‏

YouTube - ‪Brian Bromberg Trio Live "Speak Low" Bass solo, drum trades‬‏

YouTube - ‪Stanley Clarke & Gregory Hines‬‏

YouTube - ‪Patitucci - Bach‬‏


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

see, this is what I am saying--if a bassist can't play an AC/DC song with the right feel/restraint, then I would go so far to say that the bassist is not a virtuoso. A virtuoso excels in all aspects of the instrument, and if they can only play fast, and have difficulty playing slow, then I would argue that they don't have the instrument mastered.

I don't know...I consider Doug Wimbish a virtuoso who can play circles around most, and he can play slow as well as anyone, and even he didn't sound quite right on Living Colour's cover of "Back In Black." Sounds like it might have been thrown together quickly and done in one or two takes, but it just goes to show you how difficult playing like Cliff can be.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I don't know...I consider Doug Wimbish a virtuoso who can play circles around most, and he can play slow as well as anyone, and even he didn't sound quite right on Living Colour's cover of "Back In Black." Sounds like it might have been thrown together quickly and done in one or two takes, but it just goes to show you how difficult playing like Cliff can be.

Jimmy, does any r&b bassist play rock well by your standards? Doug Wimbish has some pretty impressive rock credentials, IMO. I suspect that the people who hired him were satisfied with how he played.

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

Being on talkbass for almost 10 years, I notice a recurring theme among the ranks--people seem to attribute virtuosity to fast playing, and commonly playing too much. Mostly when I see people make the polls regarding playing like a virtuoso vs. playing simple lines, or even worse, "playing what the song calls for".

If anyone reads the definition of virtuoso, it makes no reference to speed, just basically someone who excels at their instrument (in a musical context). That doesn't mean 64th notes at 300 BPM. It really only means they are capable of pulling it off. A virtuoso has the musical ability to know when to play the whole notes (or not even play at all) and when it's time to turn up the heat.

Or am I just trolling?

i'm by no means the immature kid who wants to hear "fast playing." but i wouldn't consider someone virtuosic if they cant handle a lot of notes sometimes. the definition means your a master on your instrument, in a flashy way. i wouldn't ever call james jamerson a virtuoso. i would call him a master, though. jaco, was a virtuoso. i admire them both equally, if anything jamerson more- so im not dissing him here, nor am i giving JP props. its just how they both played.

regardless of when/where its appropriate to do so on bass is irrelevant. of course sometimes you need to lay back and hardly play at all, maybe just on the downbeats, or less. but virtuosity means impressive musical and physical skill, witch inevitably means some fast playing.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Jimmy, does any r&b bassist play rock well by your standards? Doug Wimbish has some pretty impressive rock credentials, IMO. I suspect that the people who hired him were satisfied with how he played.

Don't get me wrong, Doc...Doug rocks well. Don't know that I'd call him an R&B bassist, but I guess he kind of is. I also really like TM Stevens for rock, and Oteil kicks it with the Allman Bros, as does Darryl Jones with the Stones.

[koricancowboy]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

see, this is what I am saying--if a bassist can't play an AC/DC song with the right feel/restraint, then I would go so far to say that the bassist is not a virtuoso. A virtuoso excels in all aspects of the instrument, and if they can only play fast, and have difficulty playing slow, then I would argue that they don't have the instrument mastered.

I think you need to look outside of bass guitar to find the answer. In the violin world Bach's Chaconne is considered virtuosic but it's hardly fast and notey. The sarabandes from Bach's cello suites are the same. To just play the parts of most symphonies requires virtuosity. Comping guitar chords with major extensions is also virtuosic but is not necessarily fast. I think you are just doing the old laying it down vs playing fast with a lot of notes thread that has been on here a trillion times already.

Regardless, as I said before, a true virtuoso is unencumbered by his/her instrument. Instead the instrument is the musical voice of that person. Rather than "playing" the instrument the instrument is the medium for the virtuoso to sing through. Regardless of whether or not you playing straight eighths with a pick on bass guitar or playing czardas on double bass, the difference between the mere technician, who you seem to be describing and a virtuoso is in the fact that the virtuoso is always singing through the instrument rather than playing it. Cliff Williams is a bass player. Stanley Clarke is a virtuoso. This nearly inarguable. IMHO.

[koricancowboy]

Another thought. Playing fast is part of music and necessary. If everything was medium tempo pocket stuff the world would be a boring place. Wanting to hear fast music does not make you immature it makes you want to hear fast stuff. Playing fast isn't the only thing make you a virtuoso but it is part of it. That is why you do not see it in the dictionary definition. According to Merriam-Webster the definition is: one who excels in the technique of an art; especially : a highly skilled musical performer (as on the violin) Highly skilled would include playing fast.

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by koricancowboy

Another thought. Playing fast is part of music and necessary. If everything was medium tempo pocket stuff the world would be a boring place. Wanting to hear fast music does not make you immature it makes you want to hear fast stuff. Playing fast isn't the only thing make you a virtuoso but it is part of it. That is why you do not see it in the dictionary definition. According to Merriam-Webster the definition is: one who excels in the technique of an art; especially : a highly skilled musical performer (as on the violin) Highly skilled would include playing fast.

You reiterated my point. Virtuosity isn't just playing fast, and in your other thought saying outside the bass world they believe that virtuosity doesn't always mean speed. Again, that's what I am saying. Playing slow can also require a certain virtuosity at times...my remarks were pointed mainly at the people who consider a musician a "virtuoso" because they can play fairly accurate at high speeds, but I say there is more to it than that