Doubling on electric and double basses- really necessary for modern jazz bassists?

[Fassa Albrecht]

This is a question which came to mind some time ago. It used to be common, if not necessary, for jazz bassists to play both the electric and upright bass.

Even now nearly every jazz tutorial book I've seen seems to include fingerings and lessons for the double bass as well as the electric. I've also met many jazz teachers and musicians who also play both.

But I'm thinking: is such doubling really necessary for jazz musicians now? Is there still expectation of a jazz bassist knowing even the basics of DB?

[primusfan1989]

easy answer:
you'll get more work if you can play both

[brianrost]

Easier answer:
You'll get more jazz gigs playing DB than you will playing BG.

[Herbie 80's]

There is a reason why double bass is the standard in classical and jazz. EB won't be able to replace it just based on it's sound.

[Kwesi]

Real answer:
No but jazz band leaders think you need a DB to be authentic so I refer to brianrost's post .

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

There is a reason why double bass is the standard in classical and jazz. EB won't be able to replace it just based on it's sound.

It's the standard because the electric bass was only invented 60 something years ago. If it had been around for hundreds of years, I'm sure it would be more widely used in jazz.

[Herbie 80's]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

It's the standard because the electric bass was only invented 60 something years ago. If it had been around for hundreds of years, I'm sure it would be more widely used in jazz.

No, I think you're quite wrong about this. You have to think about the dynamics of a double bass versus a bass guitar. A double bass is like a 40 inch speaker because of how they are made, and an electric base can't copy the same dynamics that the double bass has. Furthermore, sound production and what we play on double bass is vastly different than on bass guitar. Band leaders and players choose double bass for these dynamics, amony many other things. Try copying a gut sound on bass guitar, or sounding like Larry garrison on his solo in "A love supreme". It's impossible, and most people want a sound like that, not like a bass guitar.

If electric bass could sound or be played like double bass, then almost all double bassists would play electric instead.

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

No, I think you're quite wrong about this. You have to think about the dynamics of a double bass versus a bass guitar. A double bass is like a 40 inch speaker because of how they are made, and an electric base can't copy the same dynamics that the double bass has. Furthermore, sound production and what we play on double bass is vastly different than on bass guitar. Band leaders and players choose double bass for these dynamics, amony many other things. Try copying a gut sound on bass guitar, or sounding like Larry garrison on his solo in "A love supreme". It's impossible, and most people want a sound like that, not like a bass guitar.

If electric bass could sound or be played like double bass, then almost all double bassists would play electric instead.

Well, a fretless bass come very close and for me the difference is mostly in the arco sound especialy for solo, much more interesting than playing pizzicato.

[Roscoe East]

Originally Posted by Mayers

Well, a fretless bass come very close and for me the difference is mostly in the arco sound

Ask a jazz drummer whether he agrees that a fretless electric bass comes close in sound to a DB, I think you (and all us bassists) might be surprised at their perspective.

[Herbie 80's]

Originally Posted by Mayers

Well, a fretless bass come very close and for me the difference is mostly in the arco sound especialy for solo, much more interesting than playing pizzicato.

I think that you need to play more double bass. I've found that most EB players think that double bass is just a huge amount of low end, akin to a p bass with flats and foam under the bridge. Well, it's not. Listen to some jazz records like waltz for Debbie, or Blues and the abstract truth, or the all seeing eye. It's these tones that band leaders of jazz want, and the electric bass is just incapable of doing that.

[Ed Fuqua]

Who's Larry Garrison?
Personally, I think the original premise is faulty. The majority of "bassists who play jazz" don't double. When they play in situations other than jazz, they might play bass guitar - studio pop dates, Broadway pits, fusion groups, Latin groups, etc. But if it's a straight ahead (even non "mainstream" contemporary straight ahead like Branford/Kurt/Brad/etc., any of the music that's predicated on the swung 8th note) even guys who double play primarily double bass.
EVERY time this question comes up, I ask the same thing. And the amount of UNresponsiveness it generates is astounding.
Both Wayne Shorter and John Pattituci have extensive careers playing music in bands that use double bass. They also both have extensive careers playing music in bands that use electric bass. They are both successful enough at this point that they don't need to listen to record producers, promoters, agents and/or "jazz band leaders" suggestions about what bass they should use for ANY project they involve themselves in.
So why is JP playing double bass with the Wayne Shorter Quartet? Because of how it looks? Because his mom told him he should? Because Wayne doesn't like the way bass guitar looks?

Or are they basing their decision on the way a specific instrument SOUNDS with the music they want to play?

Look, you can play this music on any instrument you want. If you want to put together a quintet of pi pa, penny whistle, sousaphone, bicycle horn and tambourine, there ain't no music police stopping you. But just cause that's what YOU want to hear doesn't mean that EVERYBODY else is some kind of jazz nazi if THEY don't really want to put their band together like that.

For myself, I stopped playing bass guitar because I stopped hearing that as my voice in the music I wanted to play. I found myself at a point that it was just an instrument of commerce; if something paid enough money, I would play even if I didn't like the music I was playing or the people I was playing with. I didn't practice it, I didn't like the way it sounded AND there were plenty of other folks around who DID sound great. So why should I bother?

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

No, I think you're quite wrong about this. You have to think about the dynamics of a double bass versus a bass guitar. A double bass is like a 40 inch speaker because of how they are made, and an electric base can't copy the same dynamics that the double bass has. Furthermore, sound production and what we play on double bass is vastly different than on bass guitar. Band leaders and players choose double bass for these dynamics, amony many other things. Try copying a gut sound on bass guitar, or sounding like Larry garrison on his solo in "A love supreme". It's impossible, and most people want a sound like that, not like a bass guitar.

Can you perfectly emulate a upright on a bass guitar? Never. Can you get close enough to fool other musicians and band leaders in a blind test? I think so. If you haven't already check out a fretless Rob Allen or a decent fretless ABG with tapewounds.

If electric bass could sound or be played like double bass, then almost all double bassists would play electric instead.

I'm convinced you're not entirely right about this. Not saying that upright doesn't have a place in modern music, because it absolutely does, but I think a very large part of why it's still so widespread is not because of it's sound but because it's been solidified as a staple instrument. It's as if a lot of folks just say "This is how it's done." without actually giving the options a fair shake.

[FretlessMainly]

He must have meant Jimmy Garrison, not Larry.

In any case, I've played DB for nearly 20 years and I also have several fretless electrics of varying configuration and string type. The tonal differences between the upright and the fretless basses are quite sigificant to my ears. The DB isn't really a "big low end" instrument - the sound is focused more in the upper mids. That's not to say that you don't get low end out of a DB (especially a 4/4 or 7/8 axe vs. a 3/4), but that isn't the primary focus of the sound. But there's also a roundness that's very tough to emulate on electric bass (or even with an amplified DB in some cases).

There are also ancillary sounds, such as woody growl and string buzz from using the whole side of your index finger, especially in rapid walking on the low E and A string, that electric bass can't touch.

[Michael Case]

Ed is 100% right, it's about sound and choice. Guys like Wayne Shorter and JP choose the double bass for the sound. I can listen to straight ahead jazz with an electric bass, but really don't want to play straight ahead on the electric. Simply because it's not how I hear the music. Believe me, I have tried over and over, I can make the notes but it never sits right for me in that context. I still do love playing and practicing the electric, I try to balance my time as best I can between the two basses. I love playing music that I can play my electric in, however, that's not straight ahead jazz.

Isn't this discussion getting tired? Has anybody gotten it yet? Play what works for you, what your voice is and you'll get plenty of work doing what you want. The key to it is PLAYING WELL! That aint gonna happen going through this debate on some internet forum.

[Herbie 80's]

Sorry Ed, I meant Jimmy Garrison. My mistake. Kwesi, I think Ed's answer trumps mine, but arguing that it's based on age isn't right. Ed is right, it's usually chosen because of the sound.

[senp5f]

I have no experience playing out with a double bass, but since this is the Internet I will throw out my two cents and say that the DB is desired because of its inherent physicality.

My father is a trumpet player who like to play Dixieland stuff and all the real old stuff. Let me tell you, when he wants to rip on a chorus of blues, he has to dig in and really blow. It's a very physical act for him. The small amount of fiddling around I've done on double bass suggests that it is much the same -- you can't even play the instrument without digging in and exerting yourself. The force involved in a strong pluck will remind you why you're in the "rhythm" section because it's almost like hitting a drum. By contrast, I can play electric lying in bed.

Maybe you experienced players can tell me: Does the physicality involved in double bass change how you approach the music when you play it? That is, if you played the same gig on DB vs. BG, how would what you come up with be different? Maybe that is the reason that the DB is still preferred in some situations. It's so big and such a physical act to play it that it changes the way you come at the gig.

Anyhow, it's also hard to get the acoustic sound of a DB any other way. You can approximate what comes out of the speaker, yes, but you can't replace that deep rattle in your guts you feel while standing next to a piece of wood that is shaking you. I have to imagine that changes how you play, as well.

[pauliebass]

Many good answers and I don't need to say more. If I may though, only doublers should be answering this question as they have a real world perspective. (don't yell at me!... you only know if you know)

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by senp5f

Maybe you experienced players can tell me: Does the physicality involved in double bass change how you approach the music when you play it? That is, if you played the same gig on DB vs. BG, how would what you come up with be different?

For me, the answer is absolutely yes. My DB is set up with the action at about 1/4" at the octave. This gives my 3/4 instrument the volume and projection needed for classical and also brings out more tone for jazz. This, coupled with the more difficult access (in and out) to notes above the 10th "fret" on DB necessitates, for me, an approach that's more "traditional" on DB as opposed to the more "freelance" approach I take on electric bass.

I suppose you could just argue that I don't know my DB as well as I know my fretless and fretted electrics, and you might be right, but I do think of electric bass and DB as being completely different instruments. Whether that's a result of a "purist" school of thought or limitations in my overall ability, I don't know.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

Can you get close enough to fool other musicians and band leaders in a blind test? I think so.

I have NEVER mistaken a bass guitar for a double bass on ANY recording. I have occasionally mistaken a double bass for an electric, especially on recordings from the mid 70s through the early 80s.

My experience has been that the only folks who think you can get a double bass sound from a bass guitar are bass guitarists.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

Sorry Ed, I meant Jimmy Garrison.

yeah, just shaking yer cage a little