Everyone's a critic

[jzucker]

There seems to be quite a few threads with folks critisizing other players. This is a repost from another thread but here's my thoughts on critics...

When you put down someone else, what you are actually doing is saying something about yourself.

Either:

• I'm more informed than others who think differently
• I can do that (better)
• I like someone else better, you should agree with me
• I need attention

This is not to be confused with constructive criticism. I have no problems with someone saying that they like Marcus Miller's pocket more than Victor Wooten's but when someone says Victor ruined a groove or that anyone can play fast you're really implying something about yourself.

Just a thought...

[guy n. cognito]

What does it say about someone who says something about someone for saying someone about someone?

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

What does it say about someone who says something about someone for saying someone about someone?

It could well mean that said person is concerned about the quality of discourse within this forum.

[Woodchuck]

Okay, what about when people say, "What do you think of....."?

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

Okay, what about when people say, "What do you think of....."?

dunno...

I try to keep my original posting in mind when commenting on others' playing though.

I also firmly believe that unless you are on the same level as the person you are critiquing than your analysis is likely loaded with B.S.

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by jzucker

I also firmly believe that unless you are on the same level as the person you are critiquing then your analysis is likely loaded with B.S.

Ooh, don't know about this one here. See, I'm not on the same level with ALOT of bassists, but if they are expecting to sell cd's/tickets to me/us, then our analysis is more important than you think. However; it is internal, as in, "Hmm, would I buy this?" Now, once you take it external, I can see your point. It's cool to state your opinion, but when you try to tell others why THEY shouldn't buy it, then the B.S. factor comes into play. IMO.

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

Ooh, don't know about this one here. See, I'm not on the same level with ALOT of bassists, but if they are expecting to sell cd's/tickets to me/us, then our analysis is more important than you think. However; it is internal, as in, "Hmm, would I buy this?" Now, once you take it external, I can see your point. It's cool to state your opinion, but when you try to tell others why THEY shouldn't buy, then the B.S. factor comes into play. IMO.

I agree with you. Nothing wrong with your personal opinion but when you post your opinion in a public forum, it's valid to question the critics credentials as well...

[Marcus]

I just find it sad that the majority of the threads about other bassists turns into crap-fests about why they suck and why someone else is "better."

I dunno about the majority of yall, but when I picked up bass it wasn't to actively compete with other musicians. There's criticism, and then there's just being rude.

[Yellow]

True, true,

But aren't we all critics, anyway. We tend to always compare things we hear and see to our previous experience or information/knoledge we have.

Nobody likes to be criticised, even if they asked for it.

There is value in hashing through other peoples work so that we can learn more, lets just be mindfull of others face and feelings, not in a sissy kind of way but out of respect and understanding.

When someone talks about something I do, I like to know if they dont like it, why? If they do it better, how can I improve?
And do they talk because it makes them feel better or superior or do they really want to help?

My 2c, worth

[musicman5string]

It's human nature to criticize; we all do it, some of us mildly, some of us harshly....but we all do it. Especially musicians, who are usually competitive, insecure, and want to be liked and admired.
It's very easy on an internet forum of argue with someone in a way you wouldn't if you were face to face in a bar or whatever.

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I think it's ok to point out our opinions about other's playing. Even if I don't like a certain music or a certain part, I like to identify what I don't like about it and contemplate how I would have done it differently. I think it helps me shape who I am as a player and musician.

However, just saying it's crap and not having any reasoning behind it is pointless. If you can get something instructive out of it and not be insulting, then it's part of the learning process.

[malicous]

Originally Posted by jzucker

I also firmly believe that unless you are on the same level as the person you are critiquing than your analysis is likely loaded with B.S.

I don't know if I agree with this. For example, Roger Ebert probably can't act or direct a movie if his life depended on it, but people respect his analysis and opinions on new films. Most (music) producers I know are no good at playing an instrument or singing, but their opinions about what songs are "commercial", which take is "a keeper", and how a particular piece should be performed is very valuable and insightful. Ignoring the opinions of these people just because they are not on “the same level” as us would be a mistake. The public in general, which buys our recordings, has a very low level of music knowledge/appreciation, but that does not mean that their opinions are not valid. Just my opinion.

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

Ooh, don't know about this one here. See, I'm not on the same level with ALOT of bassists, but if they are expecting to sell cd's/tickets to me/us, then our analysis is more important than you think. However; it is internal, as in, "Hmm, would I buy this?" Now, once you take it external, I can see your point. It's cool to state your opinion, but when you try to tell others why THEY shouldn't buy, then the B.S. factor comes into play. IMO.

I agree that making a statement with the express intent on influencing other people opinions is not too cool. I disagree with being malicious about other people in general and about musicians in particular but if a player is professional and his/her music is out there for public consumption and they are fairly compensated for their work then criticism comes with the territory. Everyone can consider the source and whether or not they agree with the criticism. For example: I think Victor Wooten is a scary good player and I love his material with Bela Fleck but I don;t care for his tone and at times his playing can be a bit over the top for my tastes. No one can change my mind and I'm sure if Victor was to read this he would understand the spirit in which it was given.

[darkblack99]

Originally Posted by malicous

For example, Roger Ebert probably can't act or direct a movie if his life depended on it, but people respect his analysis and opinions on new films.

Just in the service of facts, Ebert has written for movies (Russ Meyers, IIRC) which might add some substance to his credibility as an actual participant in the process, as opposed to a bystander.

IMO, A subjective critique is not the same animal as malicious criticism...But the human ego, with all its robust frailty may not be able to distinguish the difference.
Better always to err on the side of respect for others by informing one's criticism with a humble spirit.

[BuffaloBass]

JZ, right on. Even in the local scene, I never bust on anyone's chops, even if I think the playing sucks. Maybe its a respect for the whole process of music, but it certainly keeps my head in the correct orientation, my ego in a padlocked steel box, and epistemology on music as open, receptive, and resepctful.

"Cause its all about ME becoming a bigger player. Selfish bastid, I am.

Plus, I think negative comments / energies of any sort reflect right back at ya. Kinda like being zapped by your own space ray gun as it bounces off your nemesis' trick wrist watch fliptop mirror. . Or hunting with Dick Cheney and getting birdshot in yr azz. Bad karma right back at ya man. ..kinda delf destructive...in my logic anyway....

but "selfless" analysis (if possible ) is a bit different.... like Roger Ebert...diffrerent realm..

Still, as a lifelong student of the instrument (with legacy , my 9 yr old just picked " String Bass" for his 4 grade orchestra choice!!) , I prefer not to critisize...just absorb the positive vibes I get from listening to others..and simply choosing to ignore some...of course...cause some players just aint got No Funk.

God Loves 'em anyways baby ...

[agreatheight]

Originally Posted by darkblack99

A subjective critique is not the same animal as malicious criticism.

I think that's the head of the nail right there.

[BuffaloBass]

Succinctly put.