FENDER USA REFUSE TO GIVE BYRON LEE MILLER A BASS

[MarthaSamira]

Originally Posted by jerry

Really? Is that how we judge an artists merit now through Wikipedia? [that is often very wrong] I'm getting old!

Merit to sell the instruments I make? Yes sir...

If Guitar Center kids never heard about you, you get no free bass... If you can barely play roots in your EMO whatever band and 16 year olds know your name, would you like some fries and a milkshake with your bass? How about a massage?

[ShoeManiac]

I consider myself a pretty avid music fan/listener in addition to being a bassist. My music catalog on my laptop has grown to the size that it threatens to crash my computer. And even I have to say that until this thread had come along, I wasn't familiar with Byron Lee Miller. After hearing a bit about him in the thread, I agree: he's a great player. And I definitely know some of the artists he's played with.

But I think that Fender's priorities have shifted when it comes to endorsees. I think they probably want to get more bang for their endorsement buck, and as a result they're working with REALLY VISIBLE players. And I think that shift in mindset regarding endorsees is rooted in some of the financial realities that Fender is facing in this current economy as detailed in this recent NY Times article.

As for how this particular incident was handled? Poorly, all the way around. Fenders AR people should have been a bit more diplomatic in their response. And if it was Byron Miller who posted that note on his FB page, then it's on him for airing his dirty laundry, thereby burning a bridge with Fender.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by MarthaSamira

Can't you use Ashdown without being an endorser?

I see that you endorse two amp makers. What if they ask for exclusivity? Will you do it? Should the other company be "not happy" if you drop them?

What do you get from these deals anyway? Free gear? A monthly check?

An Endorsing Artist can get anything from dealer cost on instruments to free instruments to clinics paid for by the company to some royalty (typically in the 5 to 10% range) for each piece of a signature instrument sold. Unless there is an exclusivity component to your contract it's possible to endorse two bass or amp companies. It's typically part of the negotiated arrangement between Artist and MI Company.

[braud357]

I will admit, I have never heard of Byron Lee Miller until reading this post. I thought that I was aware of most of the better players out there - I suppose that he flew under my radar. That being said, and meaning no disrespect to his abilities - why does he think that he deserves free gear ? I have seen street players that would give almost ANYONE a run for their money - talent wise. And they play for tips. As the old saying goes - "you can go to the well one too many times". Fender is just like any other business - they want a return for any investment they make. Don't fault Fender here ! I am sure that Mr. Miller has enough basses to get by ! Fender (and Squier) have artist models for player that I personally have never heard of (James Johnson and Mikey Way) for example. I am sure that they are well known in their genre of music. So Fender, if you are reading this - I am fairly well known in my neck of the woods, and have been playing Fender's my entire career (40+) years. --- How's about a freebie ?? (just kidding !!)

[EpiRipper]

Yeah, bastards wouldn't give me one for free... but nobody's heard of me either!

[MarthaSamira]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

An Endorsing Artist can get anything from dealer cost on instruments to free instruments to clinics paid for by the company to some royalty (typically in the 5 to 10% range) for each piece of a signature instrument sold. Unless there is an exclusivity component to your contract it's possible to endorse two bass or amp companies. It's typically part of the negotiated arrangement between Artist and MI Company.

So help me understand this 3/10 guy's comments.

He says he'd be bummed if Ashdown dropped him because he loves Ashdown amps. Do you get prohibited to use some company's products if you're a former endorsee? How come?

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by MarthaSamira

So help me understand this 3/10 guy's comments.

He says he'd be bummed if Ashdown dropped him because he loves Ashdown amps. Do you get prohibited to use some company's products if you're a former endorsee? How come?

He likes the amps and feels he has been an asset to the company. He probably has a personal and professional relationship with the Ashdown Artist Relations person. It would likely hurt his feelings. I think at the end of the day that is what happened with Byron-a really heavyweight Studio and Funk/Fusion bassist with a CV going back to the Seventies.
I am friends with Chester Thompson (Frank Zappa, Weather Report, Genesis, Phil Collins) and I would imagine it would be like a drum company dropping him. You'd definitely get your feelings hurt much like Byron did.
From my personal experience with a long term relationship with a company, sometimes you will get a new Artist Relations Person who will not work with you as well as the old one. If you can diplomatically work with them or go over their heads to the Owner or you can usually wait them out-in larger companies these positions rotate because they are pretty stressful and time-intensive (a friend of mine was Artist Relations for Gibson Guitars). If you need to, you can always find another company. My strategy has been to be loyal and supportive to the company. I routinely sell about 5-10 instruments every year for my main bass endorsement to students, players at clinics, etc. either directly or indirectly. I have brought in players with Major Bands to their company. It's like any other business relationship-you have to demonstrate to them why you're an asset and keep them in the loop. The key question to ask is "How would I be able to help this company?"
Finally, I only endorse basses, amps, recording gear that I would personally purchase and use. Getting something just because it's free is cheezy and Bad Karma, IMO.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by dishwallascot

The rep summed it up in his message, but in all honesty, they care about 3 things...
Your current tour schedule
Your upcoming TV appearances
Your interviews/press

For the record Byron overly fits their criteria.

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

I don't think Byron Miller's reputation can translate in any sale.

Byrons association with Fender has indeed allowed Fender to benefit. Byron has been a pro bassist longer than most in this thread have been alive. The bass players who are very much familiar with Byron are primarily of the African American demographic. When young black bass players where embracing Larry Graham, Louis Johnson, Stanley Clarke and many of the other killer funk and r & B bassist many were also embracing Byron Miller and even to this day, maybe not by the bassist who have never heard of him but Byron is still regarded as a true bassist and influence. Byrons career is still very much in full swing. Marcus Miller produced a lot of Luther Vandross music and played on some tracks but it was Bryron Miller(no relation to Marcus) who was playing bass on a lot of those tracks and the primary touring bassist for Vandross for many years. And a lot of the r & b, soul and funk bass players knew this. Bryon is also what can be referred to in the industry as a hidden gem( for which he definitely is). The industry movers and shakers constantly call on him for his skills. Byron is extremely musically versatile as his resume would show if some here took the time to read his all music page at least as well as the live video footage floating around youtube.

At the end of the day the truth is that since most bass players are not familiar with Mr. Miller obviously he must be whack. And since some here don't know his musical back ground and his influence on mainly African American bass players whats the big deal about a guy that has indeed sold basses for Fender, paid for basses from Fender, owns over 20 Fender basses and has a long standing relationship with Fender and happened to ask Fender for a none free bass.

Originally Posted by DannyNFLD

I've never heard of this guy and he doesn't have a Wikipedia page...

Originally Posted by jerry

Really? Is that how we judge an artists merit now through Wikipedia? [that is often very wrong] I'm getting old!

Thank you Jerry.

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

They could also have given it to me, or to you. Why would they?

I don't think you get it.

[Roy Vogt]

In light of Byron's and Mikey's adventures in Fenderland it may be time to trot out these guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Iut7HXN78U

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

At the end of the day the truth is that since most bass players are not familiar with Mr. Miller obviously he must be whack. And since some here don't know his musical back ground and his influence on mainly African American bass players whats the big deal about a guy that has indeed sold basses for Fender, paid for basses from Fender, owns over 20 Fender basses and has a long standing relationship with Fender and happened to ask Fender for a none free bass.

I don't think anyone is inferring that Miller "must be whack." Rather, the fact that most here have never heard of him is indicative of why Fender is probably not willing to give him free or significantly reduced price gear. What you seem to be missing is that his relative lack of fame and his skills and abilities are not related. I'm sure he's a very talented bassist, but, for a company like Fender, he doesn't have the exposure and wide marketability that they apparently look for in an endorser. The fact that he no longer fits Fenders profile shouldn't and doesn't take away from his accomplishments.

On the other hand, his handling of this issue is a bit pitiful. Trying to spread this via facebook and shills on other boards (like this one) is pretty weak sauce. Inferring that this has anything to do with race is just sad. I can't imagine that anyone has been turned off on Fender by his rants, and all it does is serve to make him look angry and vengeful.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by MarthaSamira

So help me understand this 3/10 guy's comments.

Have I disrespected you? We've exchanged pm's in the last few days.

Originally Posted by MarthaSamira

He says he'd be bummed if Ashdown dropped him because he loves Ashdown amps. Do you get prohibited to use some company's products if you're a former endorsee? How come?

I'll answer your question.


I have been dealing with the owner and founder of Ashdown pretty much the full duration of Ashdown's existence which is a little over 15 years. And the owner knows what I have brought to the table and continue to bring to the table. So if they decided to drop me I would no longer use their product because I would still be doing for them what I was doing before I got dropped. And that doesn't make sense to me.

Like I said I have a great relationship with Ashdown and get along very well with the Owner and the owners son and I plan on being with them for a very long time and they know this.


And I sincerely like the Ashdown amps and cabs that I use

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by willgroove2

You live in Detroit, are over 40 and never heard of Byron Miller........
WOW,ok that and the comment that follows tells me a lot

Tells you what? Please enlighten me with your depth and wisdom....
That maybe it quite possible that life in the bass world doesnt revolve around R&B or Jazz???
That not everyone sucks off or has their head up the ass of R&B players like they mostly do here on TB and DBP (Detroit Bass Players) facebook page.

I'll bet I can find a bunch of very accomplished players here in Detroit who never heard of him.

Please....."Wow" my ass.....

ironically the "Fender is ignoring players of color" comment was left out of this thread-unlike how it was on the DBP facebook post.

Again, I'm sure Mr. Byron Miller is a wonderful person and a wonderful player as well. I dont know. I never heard of him nor know the man....

[MarthaSamira]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Have I disrespected you? We've exchanged pm's in the last few days.

Sorry, please accept my apologies.

I was too lazy to go back a page and get your name correct. I'm really sorry.

Yes, we did exchange PM's and you were very courteous.

I'm really embarrassed now. Please don't take that as an offense.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

I don't think anyone is inferring that Miller "must be whack." Rather, the fact that most here have never heard of him is indicative of why Fender is probably not willing to give him free or significantly reduced price gear. What you seem to be missing is that his relative lack of fame and his skills and abilities are not related. I'm sure he's a very talented bassist, but, for a company like Fender, he doesn't have the exposure and wide marketability that they apparently look for in an endorser. The fact that he no longer fits Fenders profile shouldn't and doesn't take away from his accomplishments.

The tone from many in this thread insinuates just that. And again Byron Miller fit's Fender's criteria 10 fold


and since it doe's what's really going on?

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by MarthaSamira

Sorry, please accept my apologies.

I was too lazy to go back a page and get your name correct. I'm really sorry.

Yes, we did exchange PM's and you were very courteous.

I'm really embarrassed now. Please don't take that as an offense.

W'ere kool.

[punkjazzben]

This thread is, like, easily by lots the most usefulest thread ever on Talkbass. Ever. Don't ever stop this thread. Ever.

[/sarcasm]

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

The tone from many in this thread insinuates just that. And again Byron Miller fit's Fender's criteria 10 fold


and since it doe's what's really going on?

Disagree. As this thread demonstrates, only a select few on a forum OF DEDICATED AMATEUR AND PROFESSIONAL BASSISTS have ever heard of this guy. Outside of a pretty small circle (which you define as African-American bassists), this guy seems to be relatively unknown. Doing a search of this entire forum shows that his name has only been discussed 12 times in its existence.

Of course, any chance he had of getting back in Fender's good graces is probably shot now that he is going to war with them and inferring that this decision is race-based.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Disagree. As this thread demonstrates, only a select few on a forum OF DEDICATED AMATEUR AND PROFESSIONAL BASSISTS have ever heard of this guy. Outside of a pretty small circle (which you define as African-American bassists), this guy seems to be relatively unknown. Doing a search of this entire forum shows that his name has only been discussed 12 times in its existence.

Not necessarily. I think it's also age-based. When Byron was doing some of his best work with George Duke and Roy Ayers you were five years old, for example, and probably way more interested in Hot Wheels than Basses.
There's a whole Bass Culture that happened before the Internet, Talk Bass and (establishing my Old-Timer cred) even The Bottom Line and dial up modems.
Just curious, I know you're in Nashville so I'm guessing you're very aware of Michael Rhodes and Guthrie Trapp (two fine players who are Fender Artists). I'm wondering how many TB readers and members are aware of who they are?

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Of course, any chance he had of getting back in Fender's good graces is probably shot now that he is going to war with them and inferring that this decision is race-based.

Who's inferring that Byron's current situation is race based?

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Who's inferring that Byron's current situation is race based?

Originally Posted by MikeBass

I guess he's from/lives in Detroit....I've never even heard of him until the other day when this almost EXACT post was put on the Detroit Bass Players FaceBook page....
Along with Fender is ignoring players of color.....

It was promptly deleted.....

There you go.