Interesting Carol Kaye Article

[BluesWalker]

An interview from one of the all-time great rock n' roll writers.
Carol Kaye: The First Lady of Rock Guitar and Bass

His site also has a lot of other cool articles about other rock/blues musicians.

If you don't know who Jas is, he has a ca. 10-min video on youtube.

Jas regulary teaches a Creative Writing course at WCC in Ann Arbor, MI. I know about this because one of my sons is taking the course and this is how he was brought to my attention, though I have probably read countless articles by him without really noting he was the author.

[Droot]

I have a lot of respect for Ms. Kaye, but I still think she takes credit for a lot of stuff she did not actually do the final cut on. That is not to say that she did not record a version of a particular song, only that it is not her on many of the songs she claims are hers. Aside from this, she is a hell of a player and a legend of the bass. This article is very interesting also.
Droot

[rtslinger]

How could she take credit for songs she did not play on? Do you have proof you refute her claims? She has posted this in a public forum, doesn't that seem odd with her reputation at stake she would have lied about recording with these people on their hits?(meaning the final version) Wouldn't some of this artist publicly state that she is not on the record and that she is just lying.If so post some those articles I would be interested in reading them too thanks.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by rtslinger

How could she take credit for songs she did not play on? Do you have proof you refute her claims? She has posted this in a public forum, doesn't that seem odd with her reputation at stake she would have lied about recording with these people on their hits?(meaning the final version) Wouldn't some of this artist publicly state that she is not on the record and that she is just lying.If so post some those articles I would be interested in reading them too thanks.

OHHH BOY!!!

Carol Kaye's assertion and other peoples' counter-claims regarding some recordings is a long and vituperative saga, going back at least 25 years. There's LOTs of discussion available if you look around. It's a volatile issue and she's threatened legal action against forum owners in the past when her claims are disputed. If you look you WILL find producers and musicians who firmly assert she was NOT the bassist on "I Was Made To Love Her" and "Bernadette", and you'll find others who support her claim. There are a lot of bad record-keeping, fuzzy memories, record companies recording multiple backing tracks for the same song, etc. that combine to make this an area that is highly debatable, and for legitimate reasons.

The most telling story is one Bob Babbit tells of him and James Jamerson hearing a song on a jukebox and each of them thought THEY'D played the track.

Search for Bassland, Bob Babbitt, and Carol Kaye for some background on this issue. But it might be wise to do the research before re-airing all the arguments back and forth here again.

John

[VroomVroom]

^ That. Well said. John, that was the most concisely summarized accounting of the Carol Kaye saga that I've ever read. Thank you. Seriously. Folks, forget doing the research - just read John's post above a coupla' more times. Done.

OP...thanks for the link. That was a good read.

[rtslinger]

I have read most of the stories on line the A book by researcher Russ Wapensky should be out later this year and will probably shed a lot more light on the subject. He is doing exhaustive research of L. A. recording studios, studio logs and union contracts of the L. A. local. bla bla bla but I think something someone else said that I read “Motown was not quick to admit they had a little white woman laying down tracks with the Funk Brothers period”. So who is to not say or say she played on the verse of some given song and the chorus or bridge did not come in until 3 days later and she wasn't available? Being a recording musician myself I had a situation just like that, I played to finish a song that parts were already lay down by another bass player who gets the credit me or him? I am on the verses he is on the chorus because they had the hook before the verses. Just saying imo it isn't cut and dry who played on what and I think no one will ever know the real truth behind this controversy that has been going on for years

[JTE]

I've been hearing about that book from Wapensky since at least 2005. And I'm not one to believe AFM records to be ultimate truth either. Like I said, it's a can of worms with a LOT of issues on both sides. Too bad it frequently becomes an issue of personal attacks rather than substantive and rational discussion. And I find it sad that both Jamerson's and Kaye's legacy will be forever embroiled in this, rather than focused on the great music they both made and the contributions they both made to the electric bass' place in pop music.

John

[ShoeManiac]

Originally Posted by JTE

OHHH BOY!!!

Carol Kaye's assertion and other peoples' counter-claims regarding some recordings is a long and vituperative saga, going back at least 25 years. There's LOTs of discussion available if you look around. It's a volatile issue and she's threatened legal action against forum owners in the past when her claims are disputed. If you look you WILL find producers and musicians who firmly assert she was NOT the bassist on "I Was Made To Love Her" and "Bernadette", and you'll find others who support her claim. There are a lot of bad record-keeping, fuzzy memories, record companies recording multiple backing tracks for the same song, etc. that combine to make this an area that is highly debatable, and for legitimate reasons.

The most telling story is one Bob Babbit tells of him and James Jamerson hearing a song on a jukebox and each of them thought THEY'D played the track.

Search for Bassland, Bob Babbitt, and Carol Kaye for some background on this issue. But it might be wise to do the research before re-airing all the arguments back and forth here again.

John

It is a very, very interesting topic for discussion over the years, but also one that's been just as argumentative as well as confusing. And you can really attribute that to a number of things in this whole situation.

First, SO MANY of the songs that players like Kaye, Jamerson and Babbitt played on did not have any kind of a vocal track on them when they played their parts. They would be contracted for a date, play it and move on to another session. And very often players like them would play as many as three sessions a day and maybe even play a gig at night. Most of the time the session players would not hear the completed track until it was actually played on the radio. In the case of Motown, very often the same backing tracks would be used by multiple artists until the label would find which act would get a hit out of a given cut.

Now compound these levels of recording activity over a decade plus of sessions and things definitely get confusing to say the least. Some of the players may have kept good records of their own session activity in order to get appropriately compensated. That I will not dispute. But once their parts were completed the rest of the recording might be out of their hands and completely beyond their control. From there it was the producers and record labels that had control of the recordings, and for whatever reason their records or lack thereof might tell the most interesting tale. But seeing how we're some 40 years on from when most of these records were made, I doubt we're going to get anything approaching a resolution on these disputes.

[RickC]

I sense a mega-thread coming (again)

[BluesWalker]

I didn't mean to start this debate. I would have done otherwise if I thought this would start.

If you all can get beyond Carol, you should check out the other articles on Jas's site. He has a lot of his great interviews and articles on the site.

[Droot]

Originally Posted by rtslinger

How could she take credit for songs she did not play on? Do you have proof you refute her claims? She has posted this in a public forum, doesn't that seem odd with her reputation at stake she would have lied about recording with these people on their hits?(meaning the final version) Wouldn't some of this artist publicly state that she is not on the record and that she is just lying.If so post some those articles I would be interested in reading them too thanks.

I think a lot of others have already echoed my point, and I had not intended to hijack the thread (which I believe was regarding the author of the article) by bringing up the point I made.

I for one have no "proof" other then what seems obvious to me, the fact that Carol plays almost exclusively with a pick and many of the tunes she claims are what seems clearly to be finger style. Add to that the fact that most studio artists have a sound and a style that can be traced and you have a bit of a problem because Ms. Kaye seems to be all over the board when it comes to style if you go by her claims. Take the tune Bernadette (a song that is contended by Ms. Kaye and others), this song appears to be finger style and is not really like anything that Carol can prove she recorded, yet it traces almost seamlessly with Jamerson's line development at the time it was recorded (Yes, I firmly believe this one belongs to JJ, sorry) yet I can't "prove" anything, JMHO.

BTW... the assertion that Motown was somehow hiding the fact it had a "little white lady" recording kind of flys in the face of the fact that being white was not even an issue. Heck, Babbit is as white as they get, and Messina would have a hard time passing as for anything other then white.
Rant off, sorry

[Natropath]

There's a Beach Boys version of "I was made to love her," where it's clearly Carol playing, but it's exactly the same part as the Stevie version. The backing track is amazingly close to what is on the Motown recording, but it's the Beach Boys. I imagine Carol might make a claim because of this track.

[JimmyM]

carol once claimed that none of the doors ever played on their albums, even though they were perfectly capable of doing it as evidenced by live recordings of them. so yeah, i take her claims with a grain of salt. but she is very talented and did so much stuff in her own right that was great, so i really don't get her trying to claim she played songs that nobody else involved will back up. do i think she did some motown stuff after they moved to california? yes i do. do i think she did the classic versions of the tunes she claims she did? no i don't.

[Droot]

Originally Posted by Natropath

There's a Beach Boys version of "I was made to love her," where it's clearly Carol playing, but it's exactly the same part as the Stevie version. The backing track is amazingly close to what is on the Motown recording, but it's the Beach Boys. I imagine Carol might make a claim because of this track.

I'm not sure I see the point. So we can point out that a very talented studio artist is capable of playing an established piece. How does this show that she was the original artist on the Motown version SW recorded ( I didn't even know this one was claimed by Carol) with Jamerson.

DRoot

[PlanetEarth]

Who cares, really. Her contribution to the music world is undeniable regardless the outcome of verifying recording credits on a negligible percentage of her extensive discography.

IMHO: she lived and worked through a time, and speaks a language in a way that, well, there are very few left that do... I certainly would not want to be distracted from all there is to learn from her by spending energy trying to verify or discredit her work.

Just my $0.02

-PE