Jaco-Good Jazz Musician

jmcdan3 · #1 04-02-2008, 09:53 PM

Okay, Okay....the man can play the bass. But what are your thoughts on his improvising skills? A lot of Weather Report songs sound more like written compositions. Players like Paul Chambers and Mingus could have walked circles around him. I realize that it was two different era's and two different instruments but as far as a true jazz improvisor.... i find him to be far inferior to some others. But once again....he could play dam well and his skills should be praised like they have been.....

A side note...whats up with that missing bass? where the heck was it for twenty years??!?!?!?!?

Marcury · #2 04-03-2008, 09:09 AM

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, BLAH!!!

Mushroo · #3 04-03-2008, 09:13 AM

True story, Mingus was Zawinul/Shorter's first choice for Weather Report, but the festival promoter said "sorry, we need someone who looks better in white pants."

steverosati · #4 04-03-2008, 09:17 AM

WHAT WHAT WHAT!!!Did you hear him with Joni Mitchell or Bright size life? He also played in the Mingus big band at one time. The man was a great Jazz bassist!

Dbassmon · #5 04-03-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcdan3

Okay, Okay....the man can play the bass. But what are your thoughts on his improvising skills? A lot of Weather Report songs sound more like written compositions. Players like Paul Chambers and Mingus could have walked circles around him. I realize that it was two different era's and two different instruments but as far as a true jazz improvisor.... i find him to be far inferior to some others. But once again....he could play dam well and his skills should be praised like they have been.....

Did you forget to take your medication again? You are drooling.

Bruce Lindfield · #6 04-03-2008, 10:27 AM

This discussion comes around regularly - every month - do a search and there must be hundreds of threads like this now!!

WJGreer · #7 04-03-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

This discussion comes around regularly - every month - do a search and there must be hundreds of threads like this now!!

...and they all become totally rancorous. There are some widely held theories about Jaco's ability to improvise, or lack thereof. Faced with the possibility that there was something Jaco did not do well, people around here tend to get defensive, tend to redefine the term "improvise" to best suit their vision of the musician Jaco was, etc.

But, alas, I have already said too much.

skeptikal · #8 04-03-2008, 10:33 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eD9EA10ggX4

^^ I don't think he sucked too bad.

Corporate Boy · #9 04-03-2008, 10:34 AM

You should read the article in Bass Player w/ the analysis of Havana. I use to not like Jaco. He fell into wankdom category for me. He still does in some ways, but as my ear has been developing I realize how freakin' brilliant his compositions are. I am no where good enough to try to play like he does, but the simple fact that he was covering all those harmonys and arranging all that stuff. He always has some real interesting tensions in his music. I am sure he could have worked that stuff out in advance, but seriously look at the company he was keeping. You think Wayne Shorter would have been hanging out with someone who couldn't improvise behind his melodies or would Zawinful stand having someone step all over the chords he was comping? Find some of those punk jazz bootlegs from his nyc club days w/ Mitch Stein. They are basically jamming out. I have been working on learning continium by ear right. I have like 5 different versions on my Ipod. Each one is different. They all have a different improvised intro. At first Jaco didn't click with me, but once you get past the onslaught of harmonics and over the top grooves, the guy can really do it all.

santucci218 · #10 04-03-2008, 10:45 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wOGKbgQmXmw&feature=related

start at 4 minutes, its all improv.

lefty007 · #11 04-03-2008, 11:01 AM

Anybody who questions Jaco in any way should be obliterated.

Funk 'N' Stein · #12 04-03-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcdan3

Okay, Okay....the man can play the bass. But what are your thoughts on his improvising skills? A lot of Weather Report songs sound more like written compositions. Players like Paul Chambers and Mingus could have walked circles around him. I realize that it was two different era's and two different instruments but as far as a true jazz improvisor.... i find him to be far inferior to some others. But once again....he could play dam well and his skills should be praised like they have been.....

A side note...whats up with that missing bass? where the heck was it for twenty years??!?!?!?!?

Jaco....Mingus...Chambers....You are talking about three of my favorite players.

Are you talking about "walking circles" as a metaphor for superior ability or walking as in actual 'walking' bass??

If you are referring to the former then its open for debate. If you are referring to the latter then i disagree with you. If there was one thing jaco could do with absolute authority , conviction, harmonic skill and all round sheer technical mastery, it was walk 4 to the bar. FWIW there is only one bassist I hold above jaco in terms of the four attributes i mentioned and thats NHOP, whom i regard as the greatest jazz bassist (electric or upright), who ever was...period.

tkozal · #13 04-04-2008, 06:40 AM

Did Jaco know all the songs in the standard rep? Did he know all the real book tunes, in all keys (well, really the horn keys) Did he play double bass?

Sorry, he's not a jazz player...

Now I don't think this, but I have met many polyester pants wearing jazzbos (not bass players, usually) who think this way...I usually walk away speechless (there are some like this over on the "other side" here.)

Baryonyx · #14 04-04-2008, 06:57 AM

I usually think of Jaco as a fusion player but he could play jazz, no doubt.

cnltb · #15 04-04-2008, 07:04 AM

I've never seen jaco as a jazz player, or "great" improvisor.
To my ear , most of his "improvisations" are pretty lick based,with the same licks used real often.

That does not really take much away from it all tho, I think.

Where can I hear his walking bass playing as praised in Funk 'N' Steins post.
I have heard him walk , but his walking never stood out to me.
Perhaps , and very likely , I have not heard all there is.

There is of course also a difference between "good" and "great" .

Alan Vorse · #16 04-04-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkozal

Did Jaco know all the songs in the standard rep? Did he know all the real book tunes, in all keys (well, really the horn keys) Did he play double bass?

Sorry, he's not a jazz player...

Now I don't think this, but I have met many polyester pants wearing jazzbos (not bass players, usually) who think this way...I usually walk away speechless (there are some like this over on the "other side" here.)

To the "polyester pants" owners in question:

I believe he did know all rep songs and the Real Book tunes (in his video he talks about getting his hands on as much sheet music as possible) and he did play double bass before electric, it disintegrated in the Florida humidity so he bought a Fender after that. So if that's the criteria, then yes, he was a jazz player.

Jack Bruce talks about sitting in with Jaco in the 80s and Jaco thought the "rock and roll" guy wouldn't be able to keep up when he started calling Duke Ellington songs. Of course Bruce was an upright jazz guy in England before he played electric, so Jaco was surprised.

My point is, he was calling Ellington tunes and he played "Donna Lee" on the first album and "Giant Steps" on one of his live albums. He's better known for the fusion/funk stuff, but has a strong foundation in jazz.

jgroh · #17 04-04-2008, 07:26 AM

This sounds alot like the posts you read on a sports forum...MY favorite player from MY favorite team could play much better than YOUR favorite player from YOUR favorite team...meanwhile I run a 2 minute 40 and can down a dozen chicken wings in 4.3 seconds and my daddy can beat up your daddy.

Nevermind Jaco...what can you do?

Ezbass · #18 04-04-2008, 07:42 AM

Ooh the thorny Jaco issue. For me he doesn't float my boat, but that's just MY opinion and taste. Unfortunately most bassists revere Jaco in the same way that guitarists revere Hendrix and way too many column inshes are dedicated to them in the respective bass and guitar mags. I reckon get over it, they're dead, move on and find out who is causing a ruckus on their instrument today, you never know it could be you.

makaky · #19 04-04-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steverosati

WHAT WHAT WHAT!!!Did you hear him with Joni Mitchell or Bright size life? He also played in the Mingus big band at one time. The man was a great Jazz bassist!

Listen to the man and those albums then come back

pizzicato16 · #20 04-04-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezbass

Ooh the thorny Jaco issue. For me he doesn't float my boat, but that's just MY opinion and taste. Unfortunately most bassists revere Jaco in the same way that guitarists revere Hendrix and way too many column inshes are dedicated to them in the respective bass and guitar mags. I reckon get over it, they're dead, move on and find out who is causing a ruckus on their instrument today, you never know it could be you.

How can we take the instrument where it's going if you don't know where it's been? An example from my own experience is that I started tapping at 16, before I saw anyone else do it. I thought I was the man, that I was gonna change the world with my new technique. I was 16 in 1994, so Victor Wooten, Stu Hamm, Billy Sheehan and countless others had been doing it for years, much better than me. I have been humbled ever since.

As far as the Jaco thing, i'm sure lots of us here can play his grooves, but the fact remains, he created them. His music endures. IMHO, "Used to be a Cha Cha" is the best solo he ever recorded. And that was off the top of his head, amazing!