Jaco impro

odin70 · #1 08-14-2008, 09:40 AM

Have anyone heard recordings where Jaco improvise a solo over a standard tune, like he did on Donna Lee ? if that was improvised..?

I havent and i wonder if he was really able to do it..
I have heard live recordings where he plays solo over DL, but its mostly signature licks and handclapping. Of course it sounds good, but its not fantastic improvisastion.

Snarf · #2 08-14-2008, 09:45 AM

I'm in the "Jaco was a crap improviser" camp. He wrote all his solos for recordings, and live he just danced around, playing a few crappy notes in between, playing like he was on shrooms and LSD at the same time, and got cheered for being the best bassist of all time. I seriously don't get the cult around Jaco. How can people call him a jazz bassist if he can't improvise? Just silly.

RHFusillo · #3 08-14-2008, 03:04 PM

You might want to track down Brian Melvin's "Standards Zone" CD. It's a fairly straight piano trio recording with Pastorius on bass. He solos over standards. As to whether these solos were spontaneous improvisations, or if they were premeditated, I don't know -- I wasn't there. But they sound good.

Bassmickeyd · #4 08-14-2008, 03:21 PM

What would it mean if his solos were planned out or straight improvisation? He was the man playing the bass. every good improviser knows where he's going.
Havona was done in two takes...... What have you done lately?
As for Snaf's comment that unfortunately leaves him sounding very young and clueless. Do your homework. Jaco changed it all. When it comes to electric bass, there was bass before Jaco and bass after Jaco and they were completely different.
Every good bassist in the world knows that and owes a debt....... Where's that leave you?

odin70 · #5 08-14-2008, 05:52 PM

Calm down boy(s). I dont whanna debate if Jaco was the king or not. (to me he WAS and stil IS)..others may have other opinions on that and thats theyre right

RH.. I have the Melvin cd. I think Jacos solos on that cd are ok but not fantastic and i dont think they even touch what he did on Donna Lee. Of course that cd was recorded during a tough time for Jaco.

OliverH · #6 08-14-2008, 08:13 PM

For me there are two distinct Jaco "periods". Prior to going off the rails, and after.

PRIOR, he performed some amazing stuff. His general musicality and solos for me are breathtaking. I can't believe how he came up with some of that stuff, and Havona is a great example. I can't believe that solo was pre-meditated - there are some hesitations in there where you can hear him thinking. No way if it he had planned out that solo would something like that been in there.

AFTER, his playing became somewhat mechanical. Solos were merely collections of riffs, scales and arpeggios. This is demonstrated on his instructional video with Jerry Jemmott, a lot of his playing in the 80s with Birelli Lagrene, his big band stuff (listen to the solo in Invitation). He was trying to get his **** together but sadly what he had originally was lost.

I still get pleasure from listening to his 80s material, even though it is nowhere near his original skill level he still had his trademark sound and I'd love if I could play arpeggios like that! Despite his friends and family shunning poor bootleg copies of his declining musical skill in the 80s I still enjoy listening to them. Jaco at his worst was still a lot better than I am now, and I think a lot of people could say the same.

bassrique · #7 08-14-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

For me there are two distinct Jaco "periods". Prior to going off the rails, and after.

PRIOR, he performed some amazing stuff. His general musicality and solos for me are breathtaking. I can't believe how he came up with some of that stuff, and Havona is a great example. I can't believe that solo was pre-meditated - there are some hesitations in there where you can hear him thinking. No way if it he had planned out that solo would something like that been in there.

AFTER, his playing became somewhat mechanical. Solos were merely collections of riffs, scales and arpeggios. This is demonstrated on his instructional video with Jerry Jemmott, a lot of his playing in the 80s with Birelli Lagrene, his big band stuff (listen to the solo in Invitation). He was trying to get his **** together but sadly what he had originally was lost.

Sad but true OliverH.

Jazzomaniac · #8 08-15-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarf

I'm in the "Jaco was a crap improviser" camp. He wrote all his solos for recordings, and live he just danced around, playing a few crappy notes in between, playing like he was on shrooms and LSD at the same time, and got cheered for being the best bassist of all time. I seriously don't get the cult around Jaco. How can people call him a jazz bassist if he can't improvise? Just silly.

Can you please tell me what live recordings you've
heard of Jaco?? Must be exclusively from his off days
in the 80's. Anyway, here's an example of Jaco
soloing over the jazz-tune "There Is No Greater Love"
with Pat Metheny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcQ062f6Xzw

Jaco's solo starts at 4:42.

VroomVroom · #9 08-15-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarf

I'm in the "Jaco was a crap improviser" camp. He wrote all his solos for recordings, and live he just danced around, playing a few crappy notes in between, playing like he was on shrooms and LSD at the same time, and got cheered for being the best bassist of all time. I seriously don't get the cult around Jaco. How can people call him a jazz bassist if he can't improvise? Just silly.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!

Ahhh, thanks for the great laugh.

Ehhhh, just in case you weren't kidding...please validate. Show me the chart for 'Donna Lee.' And...maybe read up on commentary from Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, Michael Brecker (RIP), Bob Mintzer, and all the other cats who seem to disagree with you. Man, what a post!

Echo on the Pat Metheny and Brian Melvin stuff, even though the latter was recorded when Jaco was really struggling with his demons. As I recall from the Jerry Jemmott interview, Jaco was rarely even touching the instrument at that point. Melvin flew him out to SF, got him a bass, and pressed 'record.'

They're bootlegs and not of great quality, but have you checked out any of the NYC recordings? Some pretty inspirational stuff there. Especially so since Hiram Bullock recently passed.

DaneB · #10 08-16-2008, 02:17 AM

+1 to the Live in NYC stuff. There's a lot of great playing on those. I love the I Shot The Sherriff cover!

Bruce Lindfield · #11 08-16-2008, 02:33 AM

Jaco's solos on Bright Size Life surely demonstrate his ability in this respect and there's no way he could have got this gig with Metheny without being able to improvise.

Metheny - whatever you think of him, has big Jazz Improv credentials and I would take his opinion on Jaco any day, over an anonymous troll on the net...?

davidb · #12 08-16-2008, 03:38 AM

A couple years or so before his death I was playing a club in Ft. Myers Florida, the song we were playing at the time,"Birdland", I was doing my best Jaco imitation when this guy that had his buzz on jumped on stage. I promptly handed my bass to him in the middle of the song and watched as Jaco promptly launched into a version of "Them Changes" by Buddy Miles! Jacos' mind by that point had sadly already gone thru them changes....

cnltb · #13 08-16-2008, 04:38 AM

I've never seen him as an improviser as such( at least not in comparison with people like william parker and many jazzers) But I would never go as far as saying "he couldn't improvise.
It's just that the vast majority of the jaco "improvisations" I have heard were rather lick based with him using a few "standart licks" quite a bit.

But what the heck ...it's him that's made it onto the pedestal, so who cares...

Bassmickeyd · #14 08-16-2008, 07:45 AM

Jaco always admitted he was a riff or lick player the same as most sax players. Sax being one of the other instruments Jaco happened to play. So, I guess that's where he picked it up. But as Jaco's mental state worsened and he practiced less and less he only had his 'bag of tricks' and dare I say it 'dog & pony' show to rely on. A choice he made.
As far as the 'blowing over standards' (was he a good enough improvisor?) That question seems so 'music school' to me.
"Let's deciffer Jaco's solo and compare it to Charlie Parkers solo in the same tune."
(Mr. Parker started on the b5th. then played a whole tone scale and assented to the bA. While Mr. Pastorius started on the b5 played an altered whole tone scale landing on the bB. Do I have any thoughts on that?)

I think improvisation is a personal thing and shouldn't be relegated to debate. (IMO)

21-years after the man dies someone asked the question "Was he good enough?"
Who be the man who feels he's 'good enough' to ask that question?

odin70 · #15 08-16-2008, 03:25 PM

well to me (as i have stated before) he certainly was good enough. I dont want to sound disrespectful. He was the nr 1 bass player of the 20th century..Period!

But come on...! it must be legal to discuss him as well as others. I just wonder, could he (live) burn trough a tune like Donna lee...like he did on his first record? I would really love to hear it.

By the way! Odin is not a troll...he is the mightiest of all the norse gods. And he is going to kick youre but!

Snarf · #16 08-16-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzomaniac

Can you please tell me what live recordings you've
heard of Jaco?? Must be exclusively from his off days
in the 80's. Anyway, here's an example of Jaco
soloing over the jazz-tune "There Is No Greater Love"
with Pat Metheny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcQ062f6Xzw

Jaco's solo starts at 4:42.

You can't hear how formulaic his lines sound? A few fast pentatonics and a bunch of blind grabs for an extra note that might have a chance of sounding okay? Please.

brivello · #17 08-16-2008, 11:40 PM

memorized licks can be seen in ALL jazz players solos, its part of the style of music. most musicians may try and limit how much of it they use and try to play alot of spontaneous stuff instead. Most of whats out there is a combination off both, like the Jaco stuff.

Its about using what you know to express yourself. memorized licks are a big part of that.

look at Charlie Parker, he had one lick that he played in almost every single solo. Why? because he wanted to. It was his signature lick. and it was/is cool.

jaco isnt only considered one of the best bass players ever only because of his improvisational skill(which he had a lot of by the way). He pretty much brought the electric bass into jazz. that's a big deal. In donna lee, he not only plays classic bebop licks, but uses his bass to emulate the articulation and stylistic mannerisms of a horn. On top of that he has countless very original and interesting compositions in numerous styles.

chew on that.

Bruce Lindfield · #18 08-17-2008, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brivello

chew on that.

Don't they have signs up around here, saying don't feed the Trolls...?

shwashwa · #19 08-17-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarf

You can't hear how formulaic his lines sound? A few fast pentatonics and a bunch of blind grabs for an extra note that might have a chance of sounding okay? Please.

some would say that's improvising... maybe not the best, but it is. check out coltrane's solo on giant steps. he repeats himself all over that solo...(pentatonic lines he obviously practiced alot), granted, he quickly moved on from that stage of his development. i've been transcribing some brecker lately too, and there are definately formula that he falls back on alot.

Bassmickeyd · #20 08-17-2008, 08:56 AM

Michael Brecker was an admitted lick/riff player but could that cat turn those lines around to not sound like it.
I'm sure most everyone has heard this off of Rick Sushow's web page, but if not this is Jaco, Bird and Miles all doing Donna Lee some 30-years apart. Scroll down the page to the Donna Lee Jaco, Bird & Miles MP3
http://www.ricksuchow.com/music-group-94.html