Jaco once again

[Otso]

How did Jaco effect the way the electric bass is viewed in the jazz community? I'd especially appreciate comments from people who have been bassists from a time prior to Jaco, and have experienced the change firsthand (if there are any on TB). Just some ideas for me to get started on an essay.

[Mark Wilson]

Jaco took bass from what we knew, broke down the wall and shoved it in our faces.

[bassbrad]

While Jaco certainly brought a lot of attention to electric bass in jazz and showed us all an elevated path for bass guitar, he was not alone. Jaco, Steve Swallow and Anthony Jackson were each at about the same time trying to get the electric bass accepted as a mainstream jazz instrument. For a few years it was acceptable and sometimes preferred that the bass was electric and there were lots of doublers who played many gigs on electric out of choice or convenience. There were some positive moves in that direction but it did not last. It is currently hard to be taken seriously as a jazz musician if your chosen instrument is electric bass. Even among our fellow bass players bass guitarists are not respected as jazzers.
With that the case how do you think we fare with other jazzers or the public?

[P-BASSLOVER]

Jaco's Favorite bassists were Paul Chambers, Mingus, Paul McCartney, and James Jamerson. He just took it about 5 levels higher! At the same time era you also had Stanley Clarke who had a slightly different style, out of the two however Jaco was better. You also had Larry Graham, the first slap & pop bassist. Then arose a young, hungry jazz/funk machine better known as Marcus Miller. Miller himself admitted that his major influence was Jaco! He wore out five of Weather Report's Heavy Weather albums because he practiced along to them so much. Jaco broke down the barrier of the bass from being a root instument, to a rythm, funky, melodic lead instrument while still being able to hold down the bottom at the same time.

[cmewhinney]

Originally Posted by bassbrad

There were some positive moves in that direction but it did not last. It is currently hard to be taken seriously as a jazz musician if your chosen instrument is electric bass. Even among our fellow bass players bass guitarists are not respected as jazzers.

I completely disagree. Look at Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Dave Buda, Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Richard Bona, Steve Bailey, Hadrian Feraud, Tony Grey, TODD JOHNSON, Jeff Berlin, Brent Rusinow (just wait- you'll hear about him someday). There are many successful of jazz players who play electric.

I know Stanley and Steve both double, but they're probably best known for their electric playing, although that's probably not Stanley's strength.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by cmewhinney

I completely disagree. Look at Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Dave Buda, Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Richard Bona, Steve Bailey, Hadrian Feraud, Tony Grey, TODD JOHNSON, Jeff Berlin, Brent Rusinow (just wait- you'll hear about him someday). There are many successful of jazz players who play electric.

I know Stanley and Steve both double, but they're probably best known for their electric playing, although that's probably not Stanley's strength.

I'm somewhere in between you two. Quite few bassists survive in the jazz genre playing electric exclusively. Most of them need to play upright as well if they want to be taken seriously and get gigs. Of course there are and will be exceptionally talented people like jaco was, who survive because of their own virtuosity. But those are very few compared to the very large number of proficient working bassists. Only in my small town there are several great bassists. Only one of them don't play upright, but for medical reasons mainly.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

I'm somewhere in between you two. Quite few bassists survive in the jazz genre playing electric exclusively. Most of them need to play upright as well if they want to be taken seriously and get gigs. Of course there are and will be exceptionally talented people like jaco was, who survive because of their own virtuosity. But those are very few compared to the very large number of proficient working bassists.

That's not why Jaco survived. He just chose to concentrate on Electric and he had a vision and a very large % of his gigs throughout his carrier wasn't upright bass mandatory to begin with.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by cmewhinney

I completely disagree. Look at Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Dave Buda, Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Richard Bona, Steve Bailey, Hadrian Feraud, Tony Grey, TODD JOHNSON, Jeff Berlin, Brent Rusinow (just wait- you'll hear about him someday). There are many successful of jazz players who play electric.

I know Stanley and Steve both double, but they're probably best known for their electric playing, although that's probably not Stanley's strength.

Out of those, basically only Todd Johnson and Dave Buda (I currently study with Dave at Berklee, what a monster) play "straight-ahead" primarily - all the others have made their name playing stuff that electric bass is the go-to instrument for, like fusion, funk and more contemporary jazz-based styles. Its very difficult for an electric bass player to get anywhere in straight-ahead, mainly since that's not the sound that people want to hear when they play straight ahead. In order to "make it" you have to be extremely good and play with an extremely developed tone and groove sense. Otherwise, how else would Steve Swallow be getting all these straight-ahead gigs playing an electric-bass with a pick?

[cmewhinney]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Out of those, basically only Todd Johnson and Dave Buda (I currently study with Dave at Berklee, what a monster) play "straight-ahead" primarily - all the others have made their name playing stuff that electric bass is the go-to instrument for, like fusion, funk and more contemporary jazz-based styles. Its very difficult for an electric bass player to get anywhere in straight-ahead, mainly since that's not the sound that people want to hear when they play straight ahead. In order to "make it" you have to be extremely good and play with an extremely developed tone and groove sense. Otherwise, how else would Steve Swallow be getting all these straight-ahead gigs playing an electric-bass with a pick?

I agree with you that there is definitely a barrier for electric players in straight-ahead, but I think that for a bass player to be an exceptional player in any style requires the traits you mentioned.

P.S. Nice little bass!

P.P.S. I studied with Dave last semester- I think monster is an understatement!

[tomvelsor]

Originally Posted by Otso

How did Jaco effect the way the electric bass is viewed in the jazz community? I'd especially appreciate comments from people who have been bassists from a time prior to Jaco, and have experienced the change firsthand (if there are any on TB). Just some ideas for me to get started on an essay.

there are so many ways to word what he did.

his music is just so tremendous. the first time i heard "continuum" i was just baffled. i remember thinking like, is this even allowed? hes not doing what a bass is "supposed" to do...but it sounds damn good..

and thats when the epifani happened..

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

That's not why Jaco survived. He just chose to concentrate on Electric and he had a vision and a very large % of his gigs throughout his carrier wasn't upright bass mandatory to begin with.

not only were they not upright mandatory/neccesary, but when he showed zawinul a tape of his demo of continuum, zawinul said "thats really great playing there, but do you play electric?"

his playing a fretless electric bass before it was a common thing made up for never touching an upright.

[Baryonyx]

Originally Posted by cmewhinney

I completely disagree. Look at Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Dave Buda, Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Richard Bona, Steve Bailey, Hadrian Feraud, Tony Grey, TODD JOHNSON, Jeff Berlin, Brent Rusinow (just wait- you'll hear about him someday). There are many successful of jazz players who play electric.

I know Stanley and Steve both double, but they're probably best known for their electric playing, although that's probably not Stanley's strength.

I'd say most of that list are fusion players, easily. Some may cross more into jazz than others but most are fusion players. Some of them like Marcus even cross into pop!

As for Stanley, he is my favourite upright player but even then I much prefer his electric stuff, I'd rather hear him on an electric bass any day! But as for the Jaco vs Stanley arguments of old, Stan may have been a funky, fusion guy on the electric but he can play jazz on the upright til the cows come home! As it happens, stan has far more jazz cred than Jaco because of his upright ability!

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by tomvelsor

not only were they not upright mandatory/neccesary, but when he showed zawinul a tape of his demo of continuum, zawinul said "thats really great playing there, but do you play electric?"

I'm very familiar with that story and not to take any thing at all away from Jaco but on the majority of his recordings or live performances he did not sound like he was playing an upright.

[Jazzomaniac]

On the tune "Speak Like A Child" from his debut-album
Jaco's bass sounds very much like an upright.

[bassbrad]

Originally Posted by Chris2112

As it happens, stan has far more jazz cred than Jaco because of his upright ability!

This exactly illustrates my point. Jaco had groove, swing, knowledge, ideas and the chops to execute jazz standards but because he played electric he gets no props even from bass players. Since even bass players do not give props to electric players who play jazz, why should any one else. For me to play jazz I have to book the gig and band otherwise I would never get to play jazz!

[bassbrad]

Originally Posted by cmewhinney

I completely disagree. Look at Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Dave Buda, Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Richard Bona, Steve Bailey, Hadrian Feraud, Tony Grey, TODD JOHNSON, Jeff Berlin, Brent Rusinow (just wait- you'll hear about him someday). There are many successful of jazz players who play electric.

I know Stanley and Steve both double, but they're probably best known for their electric playing, although that's probably not Stanley's strength.

My reference for jazz community would be a standards, swing, bop, that type of thing. Electric players as a rule don't get those calls unless you are the only guy available.

[DRay521]

I don't think that electric bass and jazz bass should be considered different entities. I understand what some people here are saying about standards vs. more progressive jazz, but I think we're lacking some unity here. Bass is bass, whether you express yourself on electric or upright. I currently study jazz on upright, but play some other types of music on electric. I don't want to be categorized as either, but want to be known as a BASS PLAYER. When I play upright, I want to do my job, but if I bring an electric to a jazz gig (which I've done), I do the same job. Nobody should be considered less of a jazz player if they play electric. It's about the music, not the instrument.

[Baryonyx]

FWIW I'd rather hear an electric player in a jazz band any day!