James Jamerson/Carol kaye dispute

[ac1710]

I'm sure many of you are aware of Carol Kaye's claims that it was her who played on many of the Bass staples that are accredited to James Jamerson.
I've only just heard about this claim and being a Jamerson fanatic I was pretty shocked.

I'm taking the following rebuttal from http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html and the author ( of this section) is Alan Slutsky the author of Jamerson bio standing in the shadows of Motown.

He was dead, buried, and forgotten. Even 99% of the bass players in the world had no idea who he was. But in the last seven years, his life and music have been center stage amidst an explosion of newspaper and magazine articles (more than 350 worldwide), a long overdue biography, and an upcoming film documentary. The Fender custom shop has made a signature bass in his name, flatwound strings have begun selling again, and in the last two years, the recording company that had employed him for a decade and a half finally gave him official recognition in the liner notes of 3 recent historical CD box sets.

After three decades of obscurity, musicians and music lovers throughout the world were discovering the holy grail of the bass world-James Jamerson, the tormented genius whose earthquake-heavy bass lines fueled the Motown hit machine through the '60s and early '70s. Even though it was posthumous, he was finally getting his long overdue recognition.

And everyone lived happily ever after, right? Not exactly. As Jamerson rose in prominence, his reputation was given a serious challenge through the media by another icon of the bass, Carol Kaye. Well aware of her claims through the years about her recording sessions with the Supremes, Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, and other stars in Berry Gordy's stable, I contacted her in 1987 when I first began my research for STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson. This was done out of the highest regard for Carol's monumental achievements and contributions to the bass, and popular music in general. My intention was to find out first-hand what she had played on so I could avoid stepping on her toes.

I had expected her to name a few significant hits but was floored when she laid claim to "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", and dozens of others Motown classics-in short, the majority of James Jamerson's signature performances.

At that point I decided to rethink the entire project. If I could substantiate Carol's allegations, I would write the book about her instead of Jamerson. I expected my research to turn up pros and cons for each player's position, along with the usual grey areas you can expect when researching multiple claims to the same material. Instead, what I found was overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that James Jamerson played the tunes in question. Here are the facts that my research turned up:

1) The songwriting-production team of Holland-Dozier-Holland attested to the fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions, and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian Holland signed a notarized affidavit categorically stating that "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On", "Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye.

2) Smokey Robinson who wrote or produced probably 30-40 percent of Motown's biggest hits also denied that she had any major role in the Motown story, and had no part at all on the songs in question.

3) The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an affidavit similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance.

*********Point-Counterpoint: Carol's Side of the Story**********


1) The Politics of Race and Gender-Carol contends that Motown was afraid to admit that a white female bassist was the driving force behind some of their biggest hits. They wanted to push a black male agenda.

There are two faults with this argument. First of all, when it came to musicians, Motown had no racial or gender bias. They were all faceless cogs to them. Regardless of whether they were black, white, female, male, or Martian, they weren't going to get any recognition-period! It was a star driven phenomena and the company never gave the slightest thought to publicizing background figures. In addition, the Motown studio band (which was called the Funk Brothers) was not exclusively black. Guitarists Joe Messina and Dennis Coffey, percussionist Jack Brokensha, arranger Dave Van dePitte, and bassist Bob Babbit, who also played quite a few important Motown dates, were all white.

2) Improvised vs. Written Parts - Her claim to "Reach Out" is based upon her contention that "discerning musicians can hear that the parts weren't improvised. It was a written part". James Jamerson regularly improvised and sight read parts of that complexity. Part of his genius was that he could take a written part and make it sound as if it was his. Regardless of this argument, I have a photocopy of the original Union contract from the "Reach Out" session. It's dated July 6, 1966 (the year of the tune's release), it lists James Jamerson as the bassist (for which he received the princely sum of $61.00), and Detroit's Hitsville studio is indicated as the place where it was recorded. Carol herself admits that she never recorded in Detroit.

3) The West Coast Connection-Carol maintains that a great deal of Motown's output was being cut on the West Coast in Los Angeles.

That is true, but don't forget that Motown also had acts like Tony Martin, James Darren, and Soupy Sales signed to their label. There were also various Broadway and Las Vegas style orchestrated albums produced like the the Temptations in a Mellow Mood and The Four Tops on Broadway, not to mention the constant demand for filler material on albums. There was plenty of work to go around and Detroit could not possibly handle all of it. Frank Wilson who produced hits for Motown in both Detroit and Los Angeles supports Carol's claim that she worked numerous sessions for the company. However, he qualifies it by stating, "They used her a lot but not on the hard core R&B stuff. That stuff came out of Detroit. They didn't like her sound for R&B because she played with a pick. It didn't have that fat round sound that Jamerson got with his fingers."

4) "I Was Made to Love Her"-According to Carol, this tune was recorded at Armin Steiner's studio and she recalls "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times".

Now it starts to get complicated. First of all, the detailed studio log that Carol kept does not support her position. The log lists every date she played from 1963-1971. She painstakingly listed artists, studios, record labels, contractors and arrangers on each date. "I Was Made to Love Her" was released in 1967 which means it was cut in '66 or '67. There are no listings for a session at Steiner's or a Stevie Wonder date during that time span.

As far as "scuffling" around, the performance is perfect. Don't trust my ears. Trust the auditory ability of one of the world's most highly regarded bassists-lifelong Jamerson devotee, Anthony Jackson. He couldn't hear what she was talking about either. The "final written riff played in unison with the horns" argument also is problematic. "I Was Made To Love Her" is rhythm section and strings. There are no horns on that record.

5) Ask My Friends-Carol asked me to talk to Gene Page, Jerry Steinholtz, Earl Palmer, and some of the other studio musicians who played the West Coast Motown sessions with her. She felt they would back up her story.

I didn't just call a few of them. I talked to every one she recommended, naming the songs in question and telling them about Carol's claims. Arranger Gene Page immediately burst out laughing and said, "She said that? No way . . . never. That stuff was all Jamerson". Percussionist Steinholtz remembered playing Motown sessions with Carol but that was as much as he could remember. The closest I got to her viewpoint was with veteran R&B session drummer Earl Palmer who bristled at my suggestion that perhaps they played the demo versions of the songs in question. "Hell no!", he countered. "We weren't playing demos. We were playing hits". The only problem was that he also couldn't remember any song titles.

Now we all know that studio musicians live by their reputations, so remembering hits that they played on is of paramount importance. If they had even remembered one title-just one-I would have had something to pursue, but as it stood, they gave me no material at all to back up her story. Back in Detroit, In stark contrast to my California research, the Funk Brothers remembered everything- song titles, intricate details, times, dates, and fellow musicians on the session and it all revolved around James Jamerson.

6) The Great Cover-Up-Carol has accused many of Motown's producers of conducting illegal non-union, under scale sessions, and in efforts to cover their backs, they refuse to admit working with her.

First of all, if the sessions were illegal, why was a union musician like Carol playing them in direct violation of union rules? Secondly, the Motown story is full of lawsuits and union problems but that doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. It's just business as usual. James Jamerson certainly played under scale Motown sessions at different times. Why do these same producers admit working with him?

7) Demos That Became Hits-Amidst the thousand of studio dates in Carol's logs, quite a few are marked as demos and many of those were with Motown. According to her, the company misled the musicians because many of these sessions became the actual records.

Carol may have a legitimate grievance in this instance but not in regard to the songs in question. When the recent Platinum CD Box set The Hitsville Singles Collection was produced two years ago, most of the songs in question were pulled from the vaults and re-mastered. Motown's filing system lists whether the songs were recorded in Detroit or Los Angeles (and in a few instances in New York) on each storage box. All the disputed songs were listed as being cut in Detroit.

During the sixties and seventies, Carol Kaye contributed more to popular music than most musicians, including myself, could hope to equal in several lifetimes. By all accounts of people who know her well, she is also a wonderful, warm, loving person. I have no desire in any way to hurt her or ruin her reputation, but as James Jamerson's biographer, I do have a responsibility to him. James died a brokenhearted alcoholic, tortured by the lack of recognition for his his part in the Motown story. It took the world thirty years to find out and appreciate exactly what he did and I intend to further that recognition to the best of my abilities. If that includes defending him in the face of unfounded attacks on his life's work, so be it.

I'm still open to any information which would change the story and support Carol Kaye's version but so far, I've yet to find a single shred of evidence. I'd even go as far as to say that I wouldn't doubt that somewhere out there, there is some evidence that would support her claims on a few disputed songs.

She has my humblest apologies for the few that I may have missed. But when you're talking about "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", Standing In The Shadows of Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", and dozens of others . . . Sorry Carol. That magical legacy belongs to someone else.

To me their is no evidence behind Carol's claims whatsover, she even contradicts herself a few times. Carol's and Jamerson sounds are completely different, moreover Jamerson's approach to playing was different and you can here this in his sound.


It's a shame as Carol Kaye is one of the best players ever and has an incredible CV.
Is there any evidence at all supporting her claims?

[Alan Vorse]

This has been covered before.

[Mushroo]

Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

[ac1710]

Well the last post on that thread is from 2003.

Considering many members, including myself, weren't around then is it not OK to reopen the debate.

By the way I've seen the thread on Carol Kaye's video, but maybe we could use that one to talk about Carol's fantastic playing and this one specifically for the dispute

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by ac1710

Well the last post on that thread is from 2003.

Considering many members, including myself, weren't around then is it not OK to reopen the debate.

You are right; I apologize.

[tbone0813]

I think it's perfectly fine to re-open the debate.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by tbone0813

I think it's perfectly fine to re-open the debate.

So far it is not much of a debate....

[ac1710]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

You are right; I apologize.

apology accepted.


I think that looking at the 2 players from a technical standpoint tells us a lot. I can notice a significant difference between Jamerson's sound on the first 5 tracks of Whats Going On and the rest of the tracks which Bob Babbit played on. Now Bob Babbitt also used flats and his sound fitted the Motown style perfectly, it's not as heavy as Jamerson's but it is nearer to it than Carol Kayes very precise picked sound.

[projectMalamute]

It seems most of the people that have taken the time to really look in to it fall in to two camps.

You have the people that have looked at the affidavits, heard the opinions of the people that were actually there and listened to the solo'd bass parts and come to the conclusion that Jamerson played on those tracks.

Then you have the people who did all the same things, came to the same conclusion, and just wish people would stop being mean because Carol Kaye is 'a really nice lady'.

I don't think anyone really thinks she played on Bernadette or I Was Made To Love Her, or any of the usually cited tunes in this debate anymore.

The argument is usually to change the subject and say that she is a great bass player who has made a significant contribution to the instrument. While this is true it does not excuse pissing all over the legacy of a dead man. That's kinda inexcusable.

[cnltb]

I don't really care who played on those tracks.
I enjoy them anyways.
If carol kaye's claims are true, fair enough, if they are not, I'm sorry for her.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

It seems most of the people that have taken the time to really look in to it fall in to two camps.

You have the people that have looked at the affidavits, heard the opinions of the people that were actually there and listened to the solo'd bass parts and come to the conclusion that Jamerson played on those tracks.

Then you have the people who did all the same things, came to the same conclusion, and just wish people would stop being mean because Carol Kaye is 'a really nice lady'.

I don't think anyone really thinks she played on Bernadette or I Was Made To Love Her, or any of the usually cited tunes in this debate anymore.

The argument is usually to change the subject and say that she is a great bass player who has made a significant contribution to the instrument. While this is true it does not excuse pissing all over the legacy of a dead man. That's kinda inexcusable.

/THREAD OVER

[ihassiphilus]

I can believe that she played on some of the tracks due to Motown being shady in their business practices; notice how not until the recent hype did Motown even acknowledge the players at all. They just care(d) about the money.

Also, her style of playing being awfully similar to Jamerson's in that it's active and very rythmn-driven and almost guitar-like in attitude. I'm not saying she played on Bernadette, but look at the majority of what the song is composed of: chordal tones from major chords and approach notes, which is what she preaches. I'm not saying Jamerson couldn't or didn't play like that; he was a jazz-guy as well before the Motown stuff, so it may well have been him.

Still, it stands to reason that Motown does have some kind of agenda for them to milk as much money out of this as possible. People will be offended by this, but I will say it anyway: it's the white liberal guilt which causes many people to exclude the possibility a white player from playing on even some of this stuff.

It seems like a lot of people feel the need to diminish what certain players did and suck up to others because it's politically correct. Babbit is basically the token white guy from what I can see in Motown's history, so Motown can talk about 'race not being an issue'.

Call me paranoid, but I think Motown has intentionally thrown-up a smoke-screen to cause confusion and stands to profit from it.

[vision]

Originally Posted by ac1710

You have the people that have looked at the affidavits, heard the opinions of the people that were actually there and listened to the solo'd bass parts and come to the conclusion that Jamerson played on those tracks.

Then you have the people who did all the same things, came to the same conclusion, and just wish people would stop being mean because Carol Kaye is 'a really nice lady'.

+1...although I'll add that I've seen people from the second camp that will try to explain Carol claiming playing on those tracks that she may have played on a version of them at one time, but was replaced on the tracks at some point by Jamerson.

Either way, it's definitely Jamerson playing those basslines that we know and love.

[funkytoe]

Interesting topic. I feel Alan Slutsky's detailed inquiry above says volumes about his respect for both musicians. But in the end, I am persuaded by his evidence. Those great lines belong to Jamerson. I am thankful to the good Dr (Licks) Slutsky for helping Jamerson receive his rightful recognition as one of the greatest that ever lived.

[RHFusillo]

Ack!!! The Third Rail of Electric Bass History!!!

[Gubna]

I hate to say it, but I've never even heard of Carol Kaye before now.

of course, there probably was a time when no one had heard of JJ.

[DeanT]

Well, Jamerson isn't here to defend himself and set the record straight. And records from that era are notoriously incomplete or non-existent. So it's Carol Kayes word against James Jamerson's (or his biographer and friends).

Carol claims to have played on all those Motown hits. On "I Was Made to Love Her" she claims the recorded version was her playing. She also claims that Stevie Wonder has said numerous times (to her) that she was the bassist on it. I've never seen an interview with Stevie Wonder where he corroborates this though.

Who knows what's true. And who cares? Both Jamerson and Kaye are exceptional bassists that inspired lots of people to pick up the instrument because of their talent. I think that's more important than who gets credit on a record (assuming the bassist got paid their fair share for the session that is.)

[ibnzneksrul]

Originally Posted by ihassiphilus

it's the white liberal guilt which causes many people to exclude the possibility a white player from playing on even some of this stuff.

Pure hogwash. And I'm neither liberal nor feel any guilt about black history.

[steve66]

I think its a good idea to study both Jamerson's and Kaye's work. I don't think anyone would debate that.

[ac1710]

Originally Posted by ihassiphilus

it's the white liberal guilt which causes many people to exclude the possibility a white player from playing on even some of this stuff.

It seems like a lot of people feel the need to diminish what certain players did and suck up to others because it's politically correct. Babbit is basically the token white guy from what I can see in Motown's history, so Motown can talk about 'race not being an issue'.

The race issue is a red herring here.
your forgetting about Joe Messina, Dennis Coffee, Jack Brokensha (percussion) and Dave Van dePitte (arranger).
One of Berry Gordys top marketing men was a white guy. When he was hired it was the radio stations that had a problem dealing with a white guy selling black music, Motown's black staff didn't care.

There's no liberal guilt in me wanting James Jamerson to get the credit he deserves, it's nothing to do with sexism either. Besides saying there is assumes I am white, does it not?