Kind of tired of Carol Kaye

Johnny StingRay · #1 02-12-2009, 01:01 PM

She always takes my posts off of her forum. She harps on and on about the "fine" studio/jazz musicians who are now either dead or laid up in some old musicians nursing home. Her hatred toward modes has influenced me to the point where I just play arpeggios all the time and my playing has become BORING!! So I am incorporating more modes into my playing and I'm starting to expand my playing.

I mean, she thinks we should only play old, dusty played out standards and nothing else. I love all other forms of music. If fusion uses modes, then I'm going to use them. If rock is a bunch of roots slammed out in eighth notes, then that's what I'll play. If country is root/fifth easy stuff, then I'll do that. If I want to slap and pop and make all kinds of cool noises on my bass, then I'm gonna do it. If I'm going to play through compressors, phasers, distortion, then I'm gonna do it. If I want to show off and rip through some cool modes, then BY GOSH I'M GONNA DO IT!!

Oh, and I ain't masking taping some folded up piece felt to my bass just to make it sound dull and lifeless like she says to do as a mute! AND I'M TAKING OFF MY TI JAZZ FLATS AND GETTING SOME ROUNDWOUND ROTOSOUNDS BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF MY STINGRAY SOUNDING LIKE I'M PLAYING IN A SOUNDPROOF CLOSET!!!

SO THERE!!!

Talk about closed minded.

Oh, and that James Jamerson thing.....................I was once on her side, but the more I learn from others and really listen to the songs, (Bernadette), it has got to be Jamerson playing.
I mean, come on, I grew up in Detroit in the 60s........Jamerson's bass lines were the backdrop to my teenage years!!!! West coast rhythm section, my ass. Those rhythms were straight out of the studio on the boulevard in
Detroit.

What's up with her elitism?

So I'm breaking free from the strickness of playing just arpeggios and the same old, same old jazz chord subs she recommends................I'm breaking free from the bonds of boredom and the same old, same old......................

Bye, Carol

That's all.

martyman5000 · #2 02-12-2009, 01:10 PM

You are making me think bass players are weird dudes and should maybe take up computers.

**barebones** · #3 02-12-2009, 01:13 PM

One of the funniest rants I've ever heard on Carol Kaye! If I were you, I'd just say, "Hey, she's got her thing, and now I'm going to go do mine." No need to feel bad or angry about it. And absolutely no need to take her word, or anyone else's, as gospel.

Yango · #4 02-12-2009, 01:14 PM

Hmmmmmm... why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

20db pad · #5 02-12-2009, 01:17 PM

CK, like every and any other bassist, does not have all the answers when it comes to playing the instrument.

It's also important to keep in mind that a big part of arriving at your own unique approach and "voice" on the bass by imitating and assimilating the work of other players that inspire you. Notice the plural "s" at the end of the word "players"?

Beyer160 · #6 02-12-2009, 01:20 PM

I always thought the Wrecking Crew were really boring. Great players of course, but lifeless. The Motown players pretty much kicked them up and down the street.

Oh yeah, I went there.

jimmothy.green · #7 02-12-2009, 01:20 PM

Good for you, man. I mean that in all seriousness.

Sahm · #8 02-12-2009, 01:23 PM

What's the difference between a P-bass and a J-bass?

Oops, sorry. I thought this was a "re-hash old topics" thread!

And when I say old topic, this one pre-dates the existence of Talkbass!

StyleOverShow · #9 02-12-2009, 01:26 PM

Its a tendency among old(er) players to aggrandize their eras and make useless and meaningless comparisons, like could Godzilla take out Might Joe Young? (Whose Might Joe Young you ask, you whippersnapper?).

CK had her day, Jamerson is/was a seminal player and we walk in his (and hers) footsteps.
-richard

bikeplate · #10 02-12-2009, 01:28 PM

HI

So, how do you really feel? LOL

Who cares. She can rant and say whatever she likes. You also have freewill to ignore her dialogue. She certainly has credibility but its not law what she says. Do whats right for you. Let Carol do whats right for her

Rob

stpvoodoo1 · #11 02-12-2009, 01:30 PM

Eh...I think Carol Kaye has done enough good work to excuse her traditionalism.

bassie12 · #12 02-12-2009, 01:42 PM

There's no doubt that CK has done more than enough work to warrant her place in history and among the greats. It's sad that she's become a pitiful careerist & attention grabber who takes away from those who are no longer here to answer or dispute her claims. I asked one of her colleagues from the wrecking crew, a good friend of mine, about her claims, and all he did was shake his head and sigh.

I wish her well.

RBrownBass · #13 02-12-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

Oh, and I ain't masking taping some folded up piece felt to my bass just to make it sound dull and lifeless like she says to do as a mute! AND I'M TAKING OFF MY TI JAZZ FLATS AND GETTING SOME ROUNDWOUND ROTOSOUNDS BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF MY STINGRAY SOUNDING LIKE I'M PLAYING IN A SOUNDPROOF CLOSET!!!

SO THERE!!!

...What's up with her elitism?

Flats and felt mutes are about as elite as Pabst Blue Ribbon. Unless, of course, those flats and that mute are attached to a Fender built while Leo was in the office. Even then they're just wildly expensive.

The instrument (and the music it can produce) has evolved, thank Dog. Let CK be CK and go your own way in peace.

JTE · #14 02-12-2009, 02:33 PM

It's not her fault your playing sounds BORING. She never says to only use arpeggios. She says they're key to developing your ear and knowing your way around the instrument. Though I tend to agree with her about modes (IMO they're too often presented as a way to play through changes which adds an unneccasary level of complication- chord tones guide you to the right notes anyway unless you're playing modal vamps, but that's a whole 'nother pile of threads that already exist here).

As for how the instrument "should" sound, and what kinds of music to play, that's up to you. Like Robbie Robertson said "Just take what you need and leave the rest"

jte

chad-th · #15 02-12-2009, 02:40 PM

CK is an old lady now, and she has ALWAYS been a musician; two conditions that entitle her to her idiosyncracies. It's well documented that she played on a great number of hits. I listen to those tracks that are disputed and fancy myself able to discern between a black, male fingerstyle player from Detroit and a white, female pickstyle player from California well enough.

Sahm · #16 02-12-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad-th

I listen to those tracks that are disputed and fancy myself able to discern between a black, male fingerstyle player from Detroit and a white, female pickstyle player from California well enough.

Wow, you can hear race, gender, and geographical location in a performance? Amazing!

tZer · #17 02-12-2009, 02:57 PM

Did she keep you tied up in a closet and force you to adopt her ways or she wouldn't feed you?

Man, that musta sucked...

JimmyM · #18 02-12-2009, 02:58 PM

Carol is Carol and God bless her. I left her forum for the same reason you did. Whatever...I wish her well.

kesslari · #19 02-12-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Carol is Carol and God bless her. I left her forum for the same reason you did. Whatever...I wish her well.

And I've seen from your posts that you learned some very useful and practical stuff from her. That adds something to the "respect" side of the scale that counters some of the "ideosyncracies" on the other side...
Helps me to view her in a relatively balanced way.

JTE · #20 02-12-2009, 03:07 PM

Yep, her acerbic attitude can be frustrating enough to chase folks away. Despite my high regard for her as a bassits, a musician, and most of all as a teacher, I left her forum about eight years ago. The incessant attitude that Carol is right and any disagreement is akin to blasphemy is hard to defend. Someone asked about strings and she went on a tirade about how horrible and useless D'Addario strings are. When I respectfully commented that they're very well made strings and quite popular with lots of players in a lot of different genres, she said that no real pro uses them. Here incessant tirades against Alan Slutsky (a/k/a Dr. Licks), the whole "Standing In The Shadow of Motown" project, Bill Lee, etc. wear quite thin for me too.

The final straw was the change from Fenders to Ibanez. She loved her Precision Lyte for a long time and was as vociferous about it as she's been about TI flats and knowing your chords. Then she said that her tech said Fender made necks with a design flaw that kept them from staying true, and some other vauge assertions that FMIC was lying to people as she switched to Ibanez. Funny thing is that it seems to me the P Bass Lyte was made in Japan and my understanding is that at the time, Ibanez and Japanese Fenders were both made at the Fuji Gen Gaki factory...

But she is an excellent teacher. You have to make some choices based on certain aspecs of technique (I don't feel the need for mutes, I don't find a pick's sound to be appropriate for the majority of what I play, and flats aren't the ultimate string for me), but the MUSIC she teaches is fundamentally sound and spot on.

But then I like Jeff Berlin's teaching too...

jte