Kind of tired of Carol Kaye

[Lo.]

I don't think I'd be welcome on her site...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7-bFuq59zg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49AIpdQRRB4

Gotta hand it to her though - she'll always be the first lady of bass.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by Lazylion

Heh. Even the players who THINK they played on a certain song can't be 100% sure, evidently.

It sucks, but "it is what it is". <------ I hate saying that, but every once in awhile, it fits.

[Terry Funk]

Jeeez... Is there a more tired (and tiring) argument in the Bass world than Jamerson vs. Kaye? Both camps make valid points, but regardless of who played on what, it cannot be denied that both were extremely seminal to the development of the instrument that we all love so much and they both are owed a huge debt of gratitude from each and every one of us. Besides, I don't think it's a very fair argument anyway due to the fact that one of the principles is not here to present his side to what went on.

To the OP... just go for what you know (or what you want to know), good brother. If you disagree with Carol Kaye's rigid (and quite eccentric in some cases) philosophies, then seek out advice and information from players more in line with your way of thinking. Disrespecting a legend is never good.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Terry Funk

Jeeez... Is there a more tired (and tiring) argument in the Bass world than Jamerson vs. Kaye? Both camps make valid points, but regardless of who played on what, it cannot be denied that both were extremely seminal to the development of the instrument that we all love so much and they both are owed a huge debt of gratitude from each and every one of us. Besides, I don't think it's a very fair argument anyway due to the fact that one of the principles is not here to present his side to what went on.

To the OP... just go for what you know (or what you want to know), good brother. If you disagree with Carol Kaye's rigid (and quite eccentric in some cases) philosophies, then seek out advice and information from players more in line with your way of thinking. Disrespecting a legend is never good.

wish i'd said that....im not sure this argument will ever go away,but im glad i read the bob babbitt statement......shone a lot of light on industry practices at the time

[JTE]

The Babbit article is critical to two important aspects of this discussion. First, it goes a long way to explain the reasons why there's dispute in the first place. That people who did the gigs aren't sure what they did, or if the recording we all presume to be "the song" (a fatal mistake to confuse recordings with songs). Second why it's important to people to stake the claims. I never thought there was any presumption that "Midnight Train to Georgia" was anyone EXCEPT Bob Babbitt. But to think a producer considered hit to be padding his resumé beause they looked at a record album and didnt' see his name listed tells me why Carol is so vociferous.

I still beleive that despite what the LA union records might say (and the book that she's been promising for years that would "set the record straight"), I don't beleive her on all her points.

That this whole debacle undermines her excellent teaching and besmirches her rightful place in the history of the electric bass is sad.

jte

[RS]

"Another situation that happened to me was the first Talking Heads album. I overdubbed the Bass parts, played with a pick. The sound was exactly like the parts on the record. They need the same notes but with a better feel and better execution. "

Wow, that is astonishing.

[funkybass4ever]

Has someone made you have to do what she says? It seems like you almost had to ask our permission to do your own thing.
When it comes to playing do your own thing, be true to yourself. Just because she doesn't like modes doesn't mean you should not like them also.
she is old school and that is cool but you can still reject her notions on playing ans music.
Stand up to the bass goddess and be free!

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by b_carville

No,but they do get jealous of up & comers who are getting more attention or glory. Or a younger player who works the same genre that they do, especially if the younger player is better or a bigger draw or makes more money.

Case in point: Etta James v. Beyonce

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by Terry Funk

Jeeez... Is there a more tired (and tiring) argument in the Bass world than Jamerson vs. Kaye? Both camps make valid points, but regardless of who played on what, it cannot be denied that both were extremely seminal to the development of the instrument that we all love so much and they both are owed a huge debt of gratitude from each and every one of us. Besides, I don't think it's a very fair argument anyway due to the fact that one of the principles is not here to present his side to what went on.

To the OP... just go for what you know (or what you want to know), good brother. If you disagree with Carol Kaye's rigid (and quite eccentric in some cases) philosophies, then seek out advice and information from players more in line with your way of thinking. Disrespecting a legend is never good.

Terry, you have said things on my mind better than I could say them. I have been on this site for years, and this so-called dispute gets so old and I think a lot of other people here are tired of it and do not even bother getting involved anymore. Usually, I do not either. But I liked your post.

And, just as I have immensely benefitted from what I have learned from Carol's teachings and her ideas about being a musician, and from what I have heard of Jamerson's playing, there are many other avenues to pursue in learning bass.

You are so right, pursue those ideas that most resonate with you.

[Bluesy Soul]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

You really think older musicians are jealous of the music that's being made today by the younger folks? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

+++1 !

That must be it. Carol is jealous because she doesn't get the opportunity to use any of those lines she developed for Henry Mancini or Quincy Jones or Ray Charles on William Hung's "She Bangs".

Bluesy Soul

[Bluesy Soul]

Originally Posted by jellymax

she owes her style (as do most of us) to the father of pop electric
bass..................................Jamerson.

I have the greatest respect for the work of both Carol Kaye and James Jamerson, but I think you need a calendar and some history lessons.

James was unbelievably creative while Carol was incredibly versatile. I've played parts by both of them more times than I can count and, IMHO, James will always have more of an identifiable "style" than Carol.

Bluesy Soul

[Bluesy Soul]

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

She always takes my posts off of her forum...

Your first sentence appears to explain your motivation, doesn't it, OP? I guess the wrath of a woman scorned is no worse than that of a whining, low-functioning poster.

If you can't understand how and why more than one bassist could lay claim to countless Motown hits (even though the story's been told ad nauseum)...

and if you can't find some real gems of wisdom and insight in Carol's admittedly doctrinaire approach...

and if enticing other wankers and posers out to bravely add to your long-distance dumping on the most-recorded bassist ever is somehow cathartic for you...

then you are right.

You should stay away from Carol's forum.

Try to find something positive to bring into your life.

Bluesy Soul

[Bluesy Soul]

Originally Posted by rockinrayduke

BTW, Carol said she was really tired of you, too.

To use an Old Timer's phrase, let's "blow this pop stand", Ray.

It's beneath both of us.

Bluesy Soul

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Bluesy Soul

and if enticing other wankers and posers out to bravely add to your long-distance dumping on the most-recorded bassist ever...

Who was dumping on Ray Brown?

[Lichtaffen]

The Bob Babbitt piece is truly a sad story for all musicians.

[Baryonyx]

I don't even think she's that great a player!

[CrispyDelicious]

Carol who?

Seriously, I had never even heard of her until I found Talkbass, and then it was mostly people complaining how much they can't stand her.

That said, I really don't care what she or anyone else has contributed to the bass world. "Who did what" is a non-sequitur to me. There are people who like player A and people who like player B, let them argue. I take what I can get from my ears and my eyes and play. Why get hung up on some player you're not fond of? Seems like unnecessary negative energy to me.

[wade_b]

Personally I've learned a ton from Carol Kaye's forum, without having to join or post a single thing.

Her 1, 2, 4 fingering advice really stuck with me and has helped me improve my stamina and consistency.

I don't even pay attention to the negative stuff; if I want drama and a clown show there are other forums that are tailor made for that.

[mstott25]

Anybody who says Carol Kaye can't play is seriously deluded. Carol has played with everybody from the Beach Boys to Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Quincy Jones, Cannonball Adderley, Gene Ammons and on and on...

Having said that I totally hear what the OP is saying. Carol Kaye is opinionated and she has definitely rubbed some people the wrong way. The fact of the matter is - she can be opinionated. She's teaching music and she knows what works after years and years of teaching students and she's sick of some of the BS that has circulated in music education. But for the love of god - suck it up and learn from a living legend. What never ceases to amaze me is you have all these younger players always wanting the opinions of pros and you have someone like Carol who lays it all on the table for you. She'll tell you what to practice, what gear to use, what to listen to and how to play and she'll make sure you completely understand her. She's not going to tiptoe around your feelings or make sure your ego isn't damaged when she tells you you're wrong. She's in the business of teaching and mentoring bass players who are serious about their playing and want to be pros. If you want to see how this is working out for her just look at a list of some of her students. Ever heard of Marco Panascia?

Carol is the best in the business. There's lots of choices out there, if you're sensitive and can't handle criticism than stay away from her. If you're a young grasshopper and want to learn from the best do everything she tells you to do. No matter who your teacher is the day will come when you'll be pushed out of the nest and find your own voice and style. But until you've arrived if you want to learn bass then you won't find a better teacher than Carol Kaye.

[Eyesee7]

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

I mean, she thinks we should only play old, dusty played out standards and nothing else. I love all other forms of music. If fusion uses modes, then I'm going to use them. If rock is a bunch of roots slammed out in eighth notes, then that's what I'll play. If country is root/fifth easy stuff, then I'll do that. If I want to slap and pop and make all kinds of cool noises on my bass, then I'm gonna do it. If I'm going to play through compressors, phasers, distortion, then I'm gonna do it. If I want to show off and rip through some cool modes, then BY GOSH I'M GONNA DO IT!!


That's all.

I take it Carol's not in favor of chicken roasters and washing machines on stage either??