Kind of tired of Carol Kaye

[SoCal1]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Well yeah. If you're Steve Jobs, do you care who the facilities department's electrician is?

That's gotta be the whackiest analogy I've ever heard!

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted by SoCal1

That's gotta be the whackiest analogy I've ever heard!

Makes sense to me. Carol Kaye was just a cog in the machine at the time, just like any welder on a GM production line in Detroit.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Well yeah. If you're Steve Jobs, do you care who the facilities department's electrician is?

Based on everything I've ever heard/read about Steve Jobs: yes, yes he did.

[StereoPlayer]

I was a"friend " of Carol on FB...she post alot....enought for me to un-subscribe her posts after a few months....jeesh.

Today, did some FB clean-up...deleted her!

[SoCal1]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

Makes sense to me. Carol Kaye was just a cog in the machine at the time, just like any welder on a GM production line in Detroit.

I can guarantee you that ANY HDH production had at least one if not all the producers and the arrangers present for the rhythm tracks. Norman Whitfield???...He ran EVERY aspect of his productions and sessions with an iron fist. We're not talking about electricians or welders here, we're talking about ARTISTS. You really have no clue. Sheesh!!!

[rmosele]

Originally Posted by SoCal1

I can guarantee you that ANY HDH production had at least one if not all the producers and the arrangers present for the rhythm tracks. Norman Whitfield???...He ran EVERY aspect of his productions and sessions with an iron fist. We're not talking about electricians or welders here, we're talking about ARTISTS. You really have no clue. Sheesh!!!

Actually, welding is somewhat of an art, but I digress. I think the "lurker" was simply saying that maybe CK was more a fine bass player who played a lot of other people's stuff well rather than the fount of all things great in bass history as she sometimes comes across as. It's all good.

[SoCal1]

Originally Posted by rmosele

Actually, welding is somewhat of an art, but I digress. I think the "lurker" was simply saying that maybe CK was more a fine bass player who played a lot of other people's stuff well rather than the fount of all things great in bass history as she sometimes comes across as. It's all good.

It seems to me that he was saying that the producers had no more idea who was playing on their tracks than Steve Jobs did as to who was welding his circuits (probably in China).

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by corinpills

How does the argument begin and end in Detroit when Motown completely abandoned the city at the end of the 60s and moved the whole operation to that "remote outpost" Ls Angeles. I see your point there, there's never been much of a music scene in L.A. or anything. Sure is lucky those cats from Detroit showed up to help those hicks in Cali how to make records.

Again, I point out the small possibility that the mindset developed in the bass community since Alan Slutsky published his Jamerson book has put a serious case of blinders on people.Full respect to his significant contributions, but he didn't play on every record, he didn't play on every great soul record of the 60s and Motown is not the total sum of 60s popular music. Seriously, there's a whiff of religious fanaticism to any discussion about the holy saint of the bass.

The argument begins and ends in Detroit because the songs in dispute were recorded there.

Significant Motown songs Carol Kaye possibly played on: 'More Love' by Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, 'You've Made Me So Very Happy' by Brenda Holloway. Why? Because you can hear the plectrum she used. And they don't sound like the standard Funk Brothers groove. Jamerson had a unique, improvisational, jazz-tinged sound. Carol Kaye did not. It really isn't tough to distinguish between them.

Carol Kaye baited this trap and got caught in it.

[jazzyitalian]

You obviously come to the conclusion that you don't agree with her... And well - If what Carol says really bothers you, you don't have to read her blogs either. Just move on and do what you do.

[SoCal1]

I hate these Carol Kaye threads because they generally start out talking about what she DID play on (some fairly significant work) until some chucklehead starts insisting she played on songs she didn't...so let's state a couple of FACTS. Carol Kaye did NOT play on the released version of Bernadette and Carol Kaye did NOT play on the released version of I Was Made To Love Her. What Carol played in her basement or in her mind is of no real concern to me.

[mcm]

Yeah, she gets on my nerves too. And so do other session players.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I know of no former student(s) of hers who have express that her teaching method was anything like you describe.

You rather conveniently left out an important part of my post; that of my experience only with a DVD. I cannot speak to her technique in person with students, but I can speak to the DVD. It is horribly disjointed and she discusses concepts I've known for years and left me wondering what the hell she was just talking about.

[thunesBARROW]

Originally Posted by Rob W

Umm, speak for yourself. I'm very much inspired by her sound and approach. Always have been. I've been known to get compliments on my warmth of tone AND clarity. I owe much of that concept of sound to Carol.

+1

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

You rather conveniently left out an important part of my post; that of my experience only with a DVD. I cannot speak to her technique in person with students, but I can speak to the DVD. It is horribly disjointed and she discusses concepts I've known for years and left me wondering what the hell she was just talking about.

I have seen my share of professional musician instructional materials that one could agree is very disjointed. And pretty much every teaching material has it's aspects o fconcepts that most have indeed known for years.



You've simple found your share of reasons to not like her and really there's nothing wrong with that if that's the end result of your findings.

[4-string]

I don't see what Carol K could possibly gain from making this up. On the other hand, it's probably hard to tell after all these years who played what.

A good example is seen here in this Jamerson interview, where he lists Signed, sealed, delivered as one of his favourite bass parts. Quite the compliment to Babbitt, right?

Rick Suchow - NYC Bassist & Writer - Bass

[corinpills]

one last little thing and then I'm out of this one; the idea that all the Wrecking Crew musicians did was read charts is not completely true. There are numerous stories in this book:

The Wrecking Crew: The Inside Story of Rock and Roll's Best-Kept Secret by Kent Hartman

of Glen Campbell, Hal Blaine, Joe Osborne and yes, even Carole Kaye coming up with integral hooks and parts of songs that you all know and love. "The Beat Goes On" by Sonny and Cher did n't have a bass line when they all showed up for the session and it's essentially one chord. Carole Kaye wrote that hook. You could easily dismiss it as "so what, simple pentatonic bass line, nothing like the melodic inventiveness of Jamerson at Motown", but to my ears, the bass line is the whole deal on that one. She also wrote the bass intro to "Wichita Lineman" and, in my mind, that's about as perfect a pop record as was ever made.

That's probably a big part of what makes her so cantankerous in her old age and possibly why she might be a little liberal in her discography. If Sonny shows up with some lyrics and and an F- chord, you write the hook and get your scale pay and the record goes on to sell 9 million worldwide and you're not in the writing credits, and then that sort of ting happens dozens of times over the years, it could lead to some resentment.

That's a great book, by the way, well worth checking out and there are cheap used copies on Amazon.

[ronaldpdbrandt]

Wow, I didn't know that you could rage-quit an individual person. Gotta go make a list...

[Muziekschuur]

She is worth discussing. Because her bass and guitarlines make a big part of what we all listen to and love... She is worth the attention. Music is "hard to get". But Music holds a lot of wisdom. She shared a lot of that...

[jbednarski]

If Sonny shows up with some lyrics and and an F- chord, you write the hook and get your scale pay and the record goes on to sell 9 million worldwide and you're not in the writing credits, and then that sort of ting happens dozens of times over the years, it could lead to some resentment.


+1

This has always been a sore spot IMO in who exactly gets songwriting credit. I think that if a session player writes the hook that people identify within a second or two of hearing that tune on the radio then they're entitled to share in the song writing credits. Or do like The Doors did and give every band member equal songwriting credit.

[jsbarber]

Dude,

she's not holding a gun to your head. If you don't like what she has to say don't listen, and stop trying to post on her forum. Get a life, and stop ragging on about someone who has had an outstanding career by any measure, and is one of the founding "fathers" of our instrument.

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

She always takes my posts off of her forum. She harps on and on about the "fine" studio/jazz musicians who are now either dead or laid up in some old musicians nursing home. Her hatred toward modes has influenced me to the point where I just play arpeggios all the time and my playing has become BORING!! So I am incorporating more modes into my playing and I'm starting to expand my playing.

I mean, she thinks we should only play old, dusty played out standards and nothing else. I love all other forms of music. If fusion uses modes, then I'm going to use them. If rock is a bunch of roots slammed out in eighth notes, then that's what I'll play. If country is root/fifth easy stuff, then I'll do that. If I want to slap and pop and make all kinds of cool noises on my bass, then I'm gonna do it. If I'm going to play through compressors, phasers, distortion, then I'm gonna do it. If I want to show off and rip through some cool modes, then BY GOSH I'M GONNA DO IT!!

Oh, and I ain't masking taping some folded up piece felt to my bass just to make it sound dull and lifeless like she says to do as a mute! AND I'M TAKING OFF MY TI JAZZ FLATS AND GETTING SOME ROUNDWOUND ROTOSOUNDS BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF MY STINGRAY SOUNDING LIKE I'M PLAYING IN A SOUNDPROOF CLOSET!!!

SO THERE!!!

Talk about closed minded.

Oh, and that James Jamerson thing.....................I was once on her side, but the more I learn from others and really listen to the songs, (Bernadette), it has got to be Jamerson playing.
I mean, come on, I grew up in Detroit in the 60s........Jamerson's bass lines were the backdrop to my teenage years!!!! West coast rhythm section, my ass. Those rhythms were straight out of the studio on the boulevard in
Detroit.

What's up with her elitism?

So I'm breaking free from the strickness of playing just arpeggios and the same old, same old jazz chord subs she recommends................I'm breaking free from the bonds of boredom and the same old, same old......................

Bye, Carol

That's all.